Sarah McCammon on Politics, Media, and Leaving White Evangelicalism

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Welcome to the a World of Difference

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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this

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is. A podcast for those who are different.

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is www.betterhelp.com difference to get

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10% off your first month today. Today on

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the show, we have Sarah McCammon. Sarah is

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a national political correspondent for NPR

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and co host of the NPR Politics podcast.

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Her work focuses on political, social, and

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cultural divides in America, including the

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intersections of politics and religion,

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reproductive rights, and the conservative

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movement. She's also a frequent guest host

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for NPR news magazines and has appeared on

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the BBC, CNN, PBS, and MSNBC. During the

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2016 election cycle, Sarah was NPR's lead

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political reporter, assigned to the Donald

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Trump campaign and previously reported for

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NPR member stations in Georgia, Iowa, and

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Nebraska. She has a book that's coming out

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releasing March 19. I've been able to

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receive an advanced copy, so honored to

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have been able to receive one. And it is

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good. Everybody go preorder it. It's

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called the exvangelicals. Loving living

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and leaving the white evangelical church.

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And she grew up in white evangelicalism in

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the midwest in the United States. She

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currently lives in Norfolk, Virginia with

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her husband and two children. She

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substacks at off the air. Please go

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subscribe and you can find her on Twitter

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at Sarah McCammon we'll link all of these

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things. I'm so excited to welcome to the

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show today, Sarah McCammon. Hi, Sarah.

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Welcome to the World of Difference

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podcast. Today you get to be the one being

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interviewed. I know that's a change of

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pace for you a little bit, but you have

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written a book, so get used to it, I

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guess. But thanks for showing up today to.

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Have this conversation, Sarah. Yeah, my

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pleasure. You're right. Usually I get to

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ask the questions, so this is a reversal

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for me. But I'm excited to be here. Well,

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I'm excited to have you and just so great

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to get an advanced reader's copy of this

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book. It's been incredible. You're

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obviously a great writer, but you also

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have an experience. And I always find that

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when people are researching something, if

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they have a narrative and their own

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personal experience, it just gives a more

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rich read to a book like that. I think

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about how, like Beth Allison Barr when I

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had her on the podcast, she's writing

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about history, but she writes her own

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personal narrative into it. And I think

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that it makes her a compelling read. And

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this one certainly did. I think. I tweeted

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the other day, I'm not a big crier, more

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like a left brain person, but I was

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literally like crying in the introduction.

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Just, there's the way that you brought

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just a real depth and beauty into a very

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difficult situation you're describing

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there that just really touched me. And so

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looking forward to this conversation

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today. Sarah, thanks once again for being

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here. Yeah, well, thank you so much for

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saying mean. It means a lot. This book is

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obviously very personal, as well know,

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researched and reported, but I did bring a

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lot of myself to it, and that's exciting,

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but also a little scary. So I hoped that

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when I wrote it, it would resonate for

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people and it would mean something. And

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I'm starting to hear that as these review

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copies go out. And so thank you for that.

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Of course, it is very vulnerable to write

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about your experience. I mean, you're

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getting into details of your family and

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things that are hard, and I think, yeah,

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I'd love for you just to describe, because

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our podcast is people all around the

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world. We have about 85 countries, people

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that listen, obviously people that speak

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English, but some people are second

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language english speakers, and people of

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all different religious backgrounds

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listen. But there is something very

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specific and very particular about being

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raised white evangelical in the midwest.

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So you were raised in this culture, the

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subculture. You describe it in the book as

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an insular and immense. And at its peak in

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1993, some about 30% of Americans really

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identified as evangelicals and then you

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mentioned you're a twelve year old showing

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up to youth group in 1993, and you shyly

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showed up to these meetings believing the

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world was a dangerous place that needed

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saving and you needed saving from. So

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describe a little bit about this

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experience for those who haven't really

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walked in your shoes and don't know what

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it's like. Yeah. So I grew up not exactly

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smack in the middle of the country, but

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pretty much in the middle of the United

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States, in Kansas City, Missouri. And it

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was only later that I realized that I was

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growing up in a really, like you said,

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massive subculture. Depending on which

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numbers you look at, it is something like

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a third of the country or a little less

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identified as evangelical at that time. If

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you talk about white evangelicalism, it's

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a little bit lower, maybe like one in

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four. But by a lot of measures, it was the

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biggest religious movement in the country.

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And yet, especially for families like

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mine, that were all in. We were all in. We

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went to christian school, we went to

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church every Sunday. Some people went more

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often than that. At times in my childhood

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we went on Wednesdays or I went to events

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on Wednesdays. We had christian books,

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christian movies, christian magazines, all

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from an evangelical point of view. So a

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theologically conservative protestant

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point of view. The world that was

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presented to me as a little girl was one

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where everybody was born into the world, a

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sinner and was going to hell. And this was

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tied to the idea, I guess, in some

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traditions of original sin, Adam and Eve

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and the Garden of Eden. But the idea was

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that literally, unless you believed in

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Jesus and believed the right things about

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Jesus and followed Jesus, you were not

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saved. And we had to make sure we were

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saved, and we had to make sure that the

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world was saved. And so that meant

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witnessing was the term we used. Sharing

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the gospel, sharing our faith with our

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friends, with our family, with our

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neighbors. It might mean in youth group,

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in high school, middle school, there was a

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time I went out street witnessing, we

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called know, passing out little tracks to

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tell people about our beliefs about Jesus

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and tell them that they needed to believe

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in him and pray a prayer and ask God to

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forgive them so that they could go to

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heaven too. We funded missionary work

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around the world. And the thing that was

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really central in my particular upbringing

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and I think has become a really powerful

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part of this culture in the US, is the

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political project that became aligned with

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white evangelicalism. My parents took me

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to anti abortion marches. They volunteered

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for republican, usually Christians who

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were running for Congress and for other

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offices. And it was all intertwined for

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us. It was all connected to this vision of

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the world where the world was fallen and

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broken and we needed to save it, or we

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needed to not personally save it, but

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introduce people to the truth so that they

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could be saved. That's what I was taught.

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And that created sort of a bubble around

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me. I had very little exposure to, well,

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very sort of controlled exposure to non

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christian movies and music and things like

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that. And some kids who grew up

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evangelical or fundamentalist, even more

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conservative kind of version of this have

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no exposure or virtually none. There is a

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spectrum, but for me, it was very minimal.

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And this is kind of the only world that I

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knew except for one or two people in my

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life, including some extended family

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members who did not believe what we

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believed. Yeah, I remember reading about

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your grandpa and the book and just there's

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so many heartbreaking parts of your

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family, and I know that people reading it

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are going to relate because it's not like

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your situation is rare in a way, there are

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others who grew up exactly like this. And

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then you mentioned the intertwining of

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politics with your faith community and how

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that happened for you growing up. So that

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led eventually to you becoming NPR's lead

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reporter in 2016, assigned to the Donald

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Trump campaign, which meant you really

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were a target of Trump's followers, who

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would be whipped up into this sort of

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excited frenzy to point at you. I'm using

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air quotes, disgusting reporters who were,

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quote, the worst people and laugh. And

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basically you write about this. His shtick

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resulted in what sounds to me like a lot

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of trauma responses that must have been

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happening for you and other reporters

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coming up. But as you were raised in sort

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of this evangelical purity culture, that

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didn't really give you the skills to trust

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your body necessarily. How, as a reporter,

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did this affect you physically,

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emotionally, and spiritually? To work in

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such a really traumatic work environment

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during that time? It was stressful, and I

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think it was stressful or would be

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stressful for almost anybody, regardless

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of their personal background. I will say I

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have colleagues who go to war zones, and

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it's nothing on that level, but it's

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unexpected in an environment like this. At

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a presidential campaign rally, although it

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came to be expected for me, though, I had

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largely distanced myself from my

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evangelical upbringing by that point. I

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was in my early mid thirty s at the

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beginning of the campaign. It wasn't like

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I wasn't interested in religion or

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Christianity. We can talk more about that

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at some point if you want, but I didn't

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consider myself an evangelical. I wouldn't

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have used that label. And I tried to sort

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of separate that childhood experience from

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my work. I went into journalism because I

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really had pretty traditional views of

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00:10:29,754 --> 00:10:31,714
journalism. I didn't want to be an

265
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advocate. I didn't want to push a certain

266
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agenda. I truly was drawn to journalism

267
00:10:36,022 --> 00:10:38,306
because it felt like a place where I could

268
00:10:38,306 --> 00:10:42,066
freely ask questions and not have to have

269
00:10:42,066 --> 00:10:43,590
predetermined answers, like I so often

270
00:10:43,590 --> 00:10:45,546
felt as a child I was supposed to have.

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And that was really exciting for me and

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exhilarating. And so journalism felt like

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a space to do that. But fast forward to,

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like I said, my early mid thirty s. Two

275
00:10:54,226 --> 00:10:55,578
thousand and fifteen, two thousand and

276
00:10:55,578 --> 00:10:57,722
sixteen. I'm assigned to cover the

277
00:10:57,722 --> 00:11:01,674
republican primary. I wind up kind of

278
00:11:01,674 --> 00:11:03,962
unexpectedly as things go for most people

279
00:11:03,962 --> 00:11:05,934
covering Donald Trump. No one really saw

280
00:11:05,934 --> 00:11:11,618
that coming until it was there. And I was

281
00:11:11,618 --> 00:11:13,362
sort of face to face again with a lot of

282
00:11:13,362 --> 00:11:15,762
these themes. And even some of the same

283
00:11:15,762 --> 00:11:17,730
people and political leaders that had

284
00:11:17,730 --> 00:11:19,506
know, kitchen table names in my household

285
00:11:19,506 --> 00:11:21,862
were suddenly endorsing Donald Trump. And

286
00:11:21,862 --> 00:11:23,078
everyone was trying to make sense of that.

287
00:11:23,078 --> 00:11:24,406
And so it was this very strange position

288
00:11:24,406 --> 00:11:26,440
to be in as a reporter who had tried to

289
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,366
kind know, be professional, be neutral,

290
00:11:29,366 --> 00:11:31,206
and yet I knew so much about this world.

291
00:11:31,206 --> 00:11:34,906
And so gradually that I think I came to

292
00:11:34,906 --> 00:11:36,346
see it as actually an advantage, something

293
00:11:36,346 --> 00:11:38,906
that helped me to kind of understand what

294
00:11:38,906 --> 00:11:41,198
I was looking at and ask, I hope, some of

295
00:11:41,198 --> 00:11:43,134
the right questions and maybe help explain

296
00:11:43,134 --> 00:11:46,426
this phenomenon to people who had less

297
00:11:46,426 --> 00:11:48,846
familiarity with evangelicalism. But to

298
00:11:48,846 --> 00:11:52,446
get to your question about trauma, I think

299
00:11:52,446 --> 00:11:53,838
the experience of, like I said, of being

300
00:11:53,838 --> 00:11:56,146
sort of hemmed in by an angry crowd would

301
00:11:56,146 --> 00:11:58,514
be stressful for anybody. For me, there

302
00:11:58,514 --> 00:12:01,714
was this extra element of I would be,

303
00:12:01,714 --> 00:12:04,082
before these rallies, off to the side,

304
00:12:04,082 --> 00:12:06,066
talking to people in line or in the back

305
00:12:06,066 --> 00:12:09,142
of these stadiums and arenas. And

306
00:12:09,142 --> 00:12:10,898
sometimes people would have religious

307
00:12:10,898 --> 00:12:12,530
symbols or they would bring up their

308
00:12:12,530 --> 00:12:15,186
faith. And in general, regardless of

309
00:12:15,186 --> 00:12:16,818
religion, they reminded me of the people I

310
00:12:16,818 --> 00:12:20,450
grew up around in the midwest. And it was

311
00:12:20,450 --> 00:12:22,554
a little startling sometimes to see people

312
00:12:22,554 --> 00:12:24,726
go from completely normal and

313
00:12:24,726 --> 00:12:26,714
conversational to the moment that Trump

314
00:12:26,714 --> 00:12:28,426
took the stage and whipped up the frenzy.

315
00:12:28,426 --> 00:12:31,566
They would get so angry. And a lot of that

316
00:12:31,566 --> 00:12:34,622
was directed at us, and it wasn't

317
00:12:34,622 --> 00:12:38,014
personal. We just become symbols. Know, I

318
00:12:38,014 --> 00:12:40,110
guess, of the establishment of the elite,

319
00:12:40,110 --> 00:12:42,880
of whatever it was that people were angry

320
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:47,300
at. And Trump was happy to use us as that.

321
00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:49,554
So one of the things I write about in the

322
00:12:49,554 --> 00:12:51,506
book, though, one of the kind of shocking

323
00:12:51,506 --> 00:12:54,418
for me, surprising experiences I had was

324
00:12:54,418 --> 00:12:58,146
the weekend before the election, the heat

325
00:12:58,146 --> 00:12:59,714
had really kind of turned up. We were

326
00:12:59,714 --> 00:13:01,586
going to the press corps that was

327
00:13:01,586 --> 00:13:03,206
following Trump was going to all of these

328
00:13:03,206 --> 00:13:05,174
kind of back to back rallies like they

329
00:13:05,174 --> 00:13:07,382
have right before an election. The crowds

330
00:13:07,382 --> 00:13:10,154
were kind of especially angry and intense,

331
00:13:10,154 --> 00:13:11,606
and I think excited, too, because the

332
00:13:11,606 --> 00:13:15,014
election was about to come and I was just

333
00:13:15,014 --> 00:13:17,482
exhausted. I had very little been, you

334
00:13:17,482 --> 00:13:20,646
know, hopping on planes and buses. And

335
00:13:20,646 --> 00:13:22,046
it's kind of that point in the campaign

336
00:13:22,046 --> 00:13:25,040
when you're just over it. And I just found

337
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,302
myself kind of praying and also thinking

338
00:13:28,302 --> 00:13:31,434
as people screamed at us about really what

339
00:13:31,434 --> 00:13:33,838
Jesus taught about loving your enemies.

340
00:13:33,838 --> 00:13:36,446
And I'm not somebody that is super

341
00:13:36,446 --> 00:13:37,954
spiritual or goes to services a lot or

342
00:13:37,954 --> 00:13:40,866
anything like that, but it really felt

343
00:13:40,866 --> 00:13:43,940
like this strange, almost ironic moment

344
00:13:43,940 --> 00:13:46,018
where it felt like a very spiritual moment

345
00:13:46,018 --> 00:13:48,142
for me. And maybe that's what faith is

346
00:13:48,142 --> 00:13:50,454
ultimately about. It's not always

347
00:13:50,454 --> 00:13:51,846
something that you choose or that you work

348
00:13:51,846 --> 00:13:53,794
up. It's just something that is sort of a

349
00:13:53,794 --> 00:13:56,886
gift. Right. And that was the form it took

350
00:13:56,886 --> 00:13:59,254
for me, and that is relatively unusual for

351
00:13:59,254 --> 00:14:01,162
me, but it gave me strength and it made me

352
00:14:01,162 --> 00:14:04,074
feel like almost a form of compassion.

353
00:14:04,074 --> 00:14:07,926
Like, I don't know why these people are so

354
00:14:07,926 --> 00:14:09,338
angry at me. I don't think it's about me.

355
00:14:09,338 --> 00:14:11,066
I think it's about something else that I

356
00:14:11,066 --> 00:14:15,146
can't control. But it was sort of a

357
00:14:15,146 --> 00:14:16,606
spiritual moment to figure out how to find

358
00:14:16,606 --> 00:14:19,920
that inner strength and just move through

359
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:25,522
it. Yeah, that's the part where I teared,

360
00:14:25,522 --> 00:14:27,538
really. I was sitting in a coffee shop

361
00:14:27,538 --> 00:14:31,282
here in Silicon Valley reading that. And,

362
00:14:31,282 --> 00:14:33,774
yeah, that was just a really beautiful,

363
00:14:33,774 --> 00:14:37,646
deeply spiritual moment, I think, that

364
00:14:37,646 --> 00:14:39,654
know, in evangelical Christianity, which

365
00:14:39,654 --> 00:14:41,414
also formed me, even though I was in

366
00:14:41,414 --> 00:14:45,910
another overseas being formed by that,

367
00:14:45,910 --> 00:14:47,666
sometimes people expect the biggest

368
00:14:47,666 --> 00:14:49,266
spiritual moments to happen in the four

369
00:14:49,266 --> 00:14:51,386
walls of a church. But you experienced it

370
00:14:51,386 --> 00:14:55,126
in a very real situation. Some of my

371
00:14:55,126 --> 00:14:56,774
favorite christian authors will point

372
00:14:56,774 --> 00:14:59,002
toward those passages, too. Like, the mark

373
00:14:59,002 --> 00:15:01,686
of a Christian is somebody who can truly

374
00:15:01,686 --> 00:15:03,558
spontaneously love their enemies. And

375
00:15:03,558 --> 00:15:05,246
that's not an easy thing to do. And the

376
00:15:05,246 --> 00:15:06,654
fact that you had that experience is

377
00:15:06,654 --> 00:15:10,494
really what kind of brought me to tears.

378
00:15:10,494 --> 00:15:12,222
Thank you. And it wasn't even like I did

379
00:15:12,222 --> 00:15:14,240
anything or made a choice or did something

380
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,290
good. And I'm sure that this is something

381
00:15:18,290 --> 00:15:20,658
that happens to other people who, and I

382
00:15:20,658 --> 00:15:22,226
don't think it's probably unique to, I'm

383
00:15:22,226 --> 00:15:25,106
sure it's not unique to my tradition, and

384
00:15:25,106 --> 00:15:27,880
I want to be careful to say that. Right.

385
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:32,920
But my own faith these days is very kind

386
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,326
of mystical, and I don't really know what

387
00:15:36,326 --> 00:15:37,734
to make of something like that. And it's

388
00:15:37,734 --> 00:15:39,734
not normal for me. And I don't want to

389
00:15:39,734 --> 00:15:41,686
sound either like, oh, I felt such

390
00:15:41,686 --> 00:15:43,482
compassion and empathy. It was almost just

391
00:15:43,482 --> 00:15:45,402
like something outside of me was like,

392
00:15:45,402 --> 00:15:47,894
getting me through that. And I was

393
00:15:47,894 --> 00:15:50,874
grateful for that moment, whatever it is.

394
00:15:50,874 --> 00:15:52,986
Absolutely. No, I think that hearing you

395
00:15:52,986 --> 00:15:54,794
say that is exactly how I read it in the

396
00:15:54,794 --> 00:15:56,762
book. So I think you portrayed yourself

397
00:15:56,762 --> 00:15:57,966
accurately now that I hear you say it,

398
00:15:57,966 --> 00:15:59,486
because that's kind of what I came away

399
00:15:59,486 --> 00:16:01,902
with for you and that situation. And I

400
00:16:01,902 --> 00:16:03,438
think it's a really beautiful moment. And

401
00:16:03,438 --> 00:16:04,866
I do hope people buy your book and read

402
00:16:04,866 --> 00:16:06,770
it, because even just for the

403
00:16:06,770 --> 00:16:10,594
introduction, it's a good read. So moving

404
00:16:10,594 --> 00:16:14,626
on to some really more questions that I

405
00:16:14,626 --> 00:16:16,082
think are trying to bring all this

406
00:16:16,082 --> 00:16:17,326
together because you have a perspective

407
00:16:17,326 --> 00:16:18,818
that's really important. Not only were you

408
00:16:18,818 --> 00:16:20,866
formed in this community, you got to see

409
00:16:20,866 --> 00:16:22,322
firsthand what's happening in these

410
00:16:22,322 --> 00:16:23,974
rallies where now we're in a situation

411
00:16:23,974 --> 00:16:26,646
where christian nationalism is just very

412
00:16:26,646 --> 00:16:29,846
out in the open, and it's very much

413
00:16:29,846 --> 00:16:31,990
happening in the churches. We're seeing

414
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:34,520
things very openly that weren't so open

415
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,838
before. But as I think about some of the

416
00:16:36,838 --> 00:16:38,406
abuse allegations that are continuing to

417
00:16:38,406 --> 00:16:41,046
roll out, about some of these pastors,

418
00:16:41,046 --> 00:16:43,558
evangelical pastors that are predators,

419
00:16:43,558 --> 00:16:45,046
I'm thinking of the Southern Baptist

420
00:16:45,046 --> 00:16:47,022
convention, but not exclusively them. In

421
00:16:47,022 --> 00:16:49,406
your hometown, ihop Casey has a lot going

422
00:16:49,406 --> 00:16:51,546
on right now. But as we think about these

423
00:16:51,546 --> 00:16:53,966
evangelical church leaders who have these

424
00:16:53,966 --> 00:16:56,802
abuse allegations coming out, how do you

425
00:16:56,802 --> 00:16:59,566
think some of the Trump narrative, that

426
00:16:59,566 --> 00:17:01,250
reporters are, quote, unquote, the worst

427
00:17:01,250 --> 00:17:04,050
people, has formed hearts and minds of

428
00:17:04,050 --> 00:17:06,114
evangelicals in the pews as they hear

429
00:17:06,114 --> 00:17:08,066
about these christian whistleblowers of

430
00:17:08,066 --> 00:17:10,166
spiritual or sexual abuse that are talking

431
00:17:10,166 --> 00:17:13,206
to reporters. How are they connected?

432
00:17:13,206 --> 00:17:15,382
Well, I don't think it helps, but I also

433
00:17:15,382 --> 00:17:18,874
think it didn't start with Trump. I grew

434
00:17:18,874 --> 00:17:22,234
up being warned about the media as if it

435
00:17:22,234 --> 00:17:24,774
were all one conglomerate with a unified

436
00:17:24,774 --> 00:17:27,722
brain or something. And in reality, the

437
00:17:27,722 --> 00:17:31,562
media is so many different things. That's

438
00:17:31,562 --> 00:17:35,274
another conversation. I grew up being

439
00:17:35,274 --> 00:17:37,770
actively steered toward sort of approved

440
00:17:37,770 --> 00:17:41,642
publications, whether it was Fox News or

441
00:17:41,642 --> 00:17:43,882
publications with a specifically christian

442
00:17:43,882 --> 00:17:46,546
conservative worldview. So there's a long

443
00:17:46,546 --> 00:17:49,490
history there, and there's a long history

444
00:17:49,490 --> 00:17:51,426
of politicians attacking the press. Trump

445
00:17:51,426 --> 00:17:53,746
was not the first, but I do think it was

446
00:17:53,746 --> 00:17:56,158
one of his key strategies, and he upped

447
00:17:56,158 --> 00:17:59,798
the ante in a big way. And that has had

448
00:17:59,798 --> 00:18:03,298
the effect, all of that taken together, of

449
00:18:03,298 --> 00:18:06,054
delegitimizing the press to a large degree

450
00:18:06,054 --> 00:18:08,598
in people's minds. And so I wonder. I

451
00:18:08,598 --> 00:18:09,846
think it's a good question. You ask what

452
00:18:09,846 --> 00:18:12,406
it means for these kinds of reports about

453
00:18:12,406 --> 00:18:14,474
sex abuse in churches. How many people are

454
00:18:14,474 --> 00:18:17,914
less likely to take them seriously? I can

455
00:18:17,914 --> 00:18:19,866
only speculate, but I will say that I

456
00:18:19,866 --> 00:18:23,950
think it's why sort of criticisms from

457
00:18:23,950 --> 00:18:25,886
inside the house are especially important

458
00:18:25,886 --> 00:18:28,574
right now. I think of World magazine a few

459
00:18:28,574 --> 00:18:30,314
years ago did some really excellent

460
00:18:30,314 --> 00:18:33,326
reporting on the late Ravi Zacharias and

461
00:18:33,326 --> 00:18:36,802
sexual abuse allegations from some of the

462
00:18:36,802 --> 00:18:39,780
women that had worked, I think, around

463
00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:43,006
him. More recently, Nancy French, the

464
00:18:43,006 --> 00:18:44,926
writer Nancy French has done some

465
00:18:44,926 --> 00:18:47,346
reporting on abuse claims at places like

466
00:18:47,346 --> 00:18:50,038
Canacook camp. And I think that's really

467
00:18:50,038 --> 00:18:53,206
important because understandably, we live

468
00:18:53,206 --> 00:18:55,414
in a big, messy world, and people are not

469
00:18:55,414 --> 00:18:58,006
always sure who they can trust. And I wish

470
00:18:58,006 --> 00:18:59,878
they would trust me. And I can tell you

471
00:18:59,878 --> 00:19:01,818
that I do my best to be honest and fair,

472
00:19:01,818 --> 00:19:04,646
but if they don't, they might be more

473
00:19:04,646 --> 00:19:06,858
likely to listen to somebody inside the

474
00:19:06,858 --> 00:19:08,986
house and inside the family critique than

475
00:19:08,986 --> 00:19:10,886
they would someone like me working for a

476
00:19:10,886 --> 00:19:13,066
mainstream media organization. And so I'm

477
00:19:13,066 --> 00:19:14,794
really grateful to see some of those

478
00:19:14,794 --> 00:19:16,606
publications and journalists doing that

479
00:19:16,606 --> 00:19:19,982
kind of work. I think it's critical I do,

480
00:19:19,982 --> 00:19:21,486
too. And thank you for the work that you

481
00:19:21,486 --> 00:19:23,634
do and all the journalists. I have said

482
00:19:23,634 --> 00:19:27,074
many times over the last year. Plus, I

483
00:19:27,074 --> 00:19:30,290
feel like in what's happening in

484
00:19:30,290 --> 00:19:32,434
evangelicalism, I become really grateful

485
00:19:32,434 --> 00:19:34,754
for reporters, investigative reporters and

486
00:19:34,754 --> 00:19:37,454
the lawyers like Boschevijan. I'm so

487
00:19:37,454 --> 00:19:38,886
grateful for the department of justice

488
00:19:38,886 --> 00:19:41,286
because I feel like sometimes inside, it's

489
00:19:41,286 --> 00:19:44,166
hard to get the information, and it has to

490
00:19:44,166 --> 00:19:46,886
be from the outside on a certain level. So

491
00:19:46,886 --> 00:19:48,694
I'm really grateful for people shining a

492
00:19:48,694 --> 00:19:50,386
light, and it's hard work. And I'm so

493
00:19:50,386 --> 00:19:52,140
grateful for you and others who do that

494
00:19:52,140 --> 00:19:55,066
work. I think about in the book, you talk

495
00:19:55,066 --> 00:19:57,146
about, like, as a child, you're the oldest

496
00:19:57,146 --> 00:19:59,126
of four. You have these blonde, well

497
00:19:59,126 --> 00:20:01,238
behaved children, these three little girls

498
00:20:01,238 --> 00:20:04,046
spaced three years apart, and a brother

499
00:20:04,046 --> 00:20:07,166
who was a surprise to you. What a brother.

500
00:20:07,166 --> 00:20:10,526
And then you say, you know, at that stage

501
00:20:10,526 --> 00:20:12,602
of your life, you knew that your neat

502
00:20:12,602 --> 00:20:14,142
appearance, your obedient behavior in

503
00:20:14,142 --> 00:20:16,394
public was one small way you could be a

504
00:20:16,394 --> 00:20:18,450
witness for Jesus, displaying what a

505
00:20:18,450 --> 00:20:21,070
family could be and should be know. A

506
00:20:21,070 --> 00:20:23,294
father, a mother, four obedient children

507
00:20:23,294 --> 00:20:25,490
fresh from the church, eating apple pie

508
00:20:25,490 --> 00:20:27,750
together. And then you say, everywhere we

509
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:29,446
went, everything we did, we were told we

510
00:20:29,446 --> 00:20:32,214
must be ambassadors for Christ. How would

511
00:20:32,214 --> 00:20:34,962
you describe the way this intense sort of

512
00:20:34,962 --> 00:20:37,346
pressure for perfectionism and behavior

513
00:20:37,346 --> 00:20:39,142
management of children was sort of

514
00:20:39,142 --> 00:20:41,126
intertwined with your evangelical

515
00:20:41,126 --> 00:20:43,754
spiritual formation at the same time?

516
00:20:43,754 --> 00:20:45,926
Well, because we believed that we had the

517
00:20:45,926 --> 00:20:49,270
truth and we believed that the world was

518
00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:52,190
dying literally without it. It was so

519
00:20:52,190 --> 00:20:54,350
important that we convey that to other

520
00:20:54,350 --> 00:20:57,598
people, starting with the people we had

521
00:20:57,598 --> 00:20:59,726
contact with. And we didn't have contact

522
00:20:59,726 --> 00:21:03,226
with a whole lot of non Christians. As

523
00:21:03,226 --> 00:21:04,802
I've described, my whole world was pretty

524
00:21:04,802 --> 00:21:07,662
much church and christian school and

525
00:21:07,662 --> 00:21:10,946
evangelical circles. But on the occasions

526
00:21:10,946 --> 00:21:14,210
that we did, it was important to shine a

527
00:21:14,210 --> 00:21:16,350
light. There's this verse in the New

528
00:21:16,350 --> 00:21:18,674
Testament, let your light so shine before

529
00:21:18,674 --> 00:21:21,074
men that they will see your good deeds and

530
00:21:21,074 --> 00:21:23,766
glorify your father in heaven. And that

531
00:21:23,766 --> 00:21:25,606
was one that was quoted to us, and I'm

532
00:21:25,606 --> 00:21:27,942
sure in Sunday school and church and

533
00:21:27,942 --> 00:21:29,498
probably christian school, too. And there

534
00:21:29,498 --> 00:21:32,666
was just this idea that you had to exhibit

535
00:21:32,666 --> 00:21:35,994
with your life, the joy that came from

536
00:21:35,994 --> 00:21:39,354
being a Christian, the peace that passes

537
00:21:39,354 --> 00:21:41,886
all understanding, to quote the Bible as

538
00:21:41,886 --> 00:21:45,182
well. And the challenge was I didn't

539
00:21:45,182 --> 00:21:47,102
always feel that peace and joy. I mean, I

540
00:21:47,102 --> 00:21:51,246
sure wanted to, and I wanted to share the

541
00:21:51,246 --> 00:21:54,506
good news, and I certainly wanted my

542
00:21:54,506 --> 00:21:55,810
extended family that I've mentioned,

543
00:21:55,810 --> 00:21:59,054
especially my grandpa, to get saved, quote

544
00:21:59,054 --> 00:22:01,134
unquote. And so I felt that pressure,

545
00:22:01,134 --> 00:22:04,926
particularly around them. It felt like a

546
00:22:04,926 --> 00:22:08,646
huge responsibility, and it was about

547
00:22:08,646 --> 00:22:11,766
being on your best behavior, just showing

548
00:22:11,766 --> 00:22:15,894
everyone that we kind of had it figured

549
00:22:15,894 --> 00:22:17,286
out. I mean, that's not how anyone would

550
00:22:17,286 --> 00:22:19,030
have put it, but that's kind of how it

551
00:22:19,030 --> 00:22:24,086
felt. Yeah. It has to be a lot of intense

552
00:22:24,086 --> 00:22:26,166
pressure as a child, and I'm sure

553
00:22:26,166 --> 00:22:28,282
processing that now as an adult is not

554
00:22:28,282 --> 00:22:29,594
easy. I know many people are in that

555
00:22:29,594 --> 00:22:30,986
space, which is kind of why you've written

556
00:22:30,986 --> 00:22:34,122
this book, for people to help themselves

557
00:22:34,122 --> 00:22:35,518
find themselves in your story. And that's

558
00:22:35,518 --> 00:22:37,966
the thing about story, right. Is we can

559
00:22:37,966 --> 00:22:39,934
see ourselves in other people's stories,

560
00:22:39,934 --> 00:22:41,742
right. There's these few stories in the

561
00:22:41,742 --> 00:22:44,394
world, and when we tell them people, other

562
00:22:44,394 --> 00:22:46,466
humans, can relate to parts of it. And you

563
00:22:46,466 --> 00:22:49,554
have this term exvangelical, which has

564
00:22:49,554 --> 00:22:51,746
been used quite a bit, and I'd love to

565
00:22:51,746 --> 00:22:53,666
know how you define the term. And also

566
00:22:53,666 --> 00:22:56,162
sort of what misconceptions are out there

567
00:22:56,162 --> 00:22:59,474
about this group being often viewed either

568
00:22:59,474 --> 00:23:02,102
exclusively non religious or secular, but

569
00:23:02,102 --> 00:23:04,326
not counting some, that sort of really

570
00:23:04,326 --> 00:23:05,846
help to remain spiritual. What is your

571
00:23:05,846 --> 00:23:08,134
take on all of that? Yeah, well, you're

572
00:23:08,134 --> 00:23:11,190
right. I mean, I think that there are huge

573
00:23:11,190 --> 00:23:12,586
commonalities between people who've in

574
00:23:12,586 --> 00:23:14,746
some way walked this journey. Part of it

575
00:23:14,746 --> 00:23:17,514
is because while everyone's experience is

576
00:23:17,514 --> 00:23:19,706
different and there are varieties of sort

577
00:23:19,706 --> 00:23:22,290
of sub subcultures and different

578
00:23:22,290 --> 00:23:24,190
traditions within the evangelical

579
00:23:24,190 --> 00:23:27,582
tradition. There was this what I call kind

580
00:23:27,582 --> 00:23:29,114
of and what others have called kind of a

581
00:23:29,114 --> 00:23:31,374
parallel universe of sort of this curated

582
00:23:31,374 --> 00:23:35,566
world of evangelical culture and media and

583
00:23:35,566 --> 00:23:37,394
language and thought that so many of us

584
00:23:37,394 --> 00:23:40,738
were exposed to. And so there's a common

585
00:23:40,738 --> 00:23:42,370
experience, and there's a common

586
00:23:42,370 --> 00:23:44,914
experience in stepping away from that

587
00:23:44,914 --> 00:23:47,346
world. There's a sense of, I think, a loss

588
00:23:47,346 --> 00:23:49,906
of community, for sure. There's a lot of

589
00:23:49,906 --> 00:23:52,006
fear and anxiety about getting it wrong

590
00:23:52,006 --> 00:23:53,218
because we were told that was, like, the

591
00:23:53,218 --> 00:23:57,078
worst thing that you could do. And then

592
00:23:57,078 --> 00:23:58,406
there are questions about, well, what am I

593
00:23:58,406 --> 00:24:00,902
now? And who am I now? And so I came

594
00:24:00,902 --> 00:24:03,418
across the term exvangelical as I write in

595
00:24:03,418 --> 00:24:06,138
the book, reporting a story in 2016 about

596
00:24:06,138 --> 00:24:07,766
some of the divisions within the

597
00:24:07,766 --> 00:24:10,182
evangelical movement that had been not

598
00:24:10,182 --> 00:24:12,246
necessarily created, but certainly

599
00:24:12,246 --> 00:24:15,894
catalyzed and exacerbated by Trumpism. And

600
00:24:15,894 --> 00:24:19,214
I started kind of following that hashtag

601
00:24:19,214 --> 00:24:22,378
on social media, and it was coined

602
00:24:22,378 --> 00:24:24,574
originally by Blake Chastain, who has a

603
00:24:24,574 --> 00:24:27,042
podcast by that name. And I just began to

604
00:24:27,042 --> 00:24:29,006
see a lot of conversations kind of

605
00:24:29,006 --> 00:24:32,574
unfolding around that terminology. Quite

606
00:24:32,574 --> 00:24:34,594
simply, people who were once evangelical,

607
00:24:34,594 --> 00:24:36,674
who no longer feel comfortable with that

608
00:24:36,674 --> 00:24:40,598
label, for whatever reason. And so that's

609
00:24:40,598 --> 00:24:42,118
how I've defined it. And I also talk about

610
00:24:42,118 --> 00:24:44,694
the fact that evangelical is a very sort

611
00:24:44,694 --> 00:24:47,826
of squishy term that sociologists and

612
00:24:47,826 --> 00:24:50,406
pollsters struggle to define. But I think

613
00:24:50,406 --> 00:24:52,954
it's easy to point to a number of things.

614
00:24:52,954 --> 00:24:55,526
And I kind of organized the book

615
00:24:55,526 --> 00:24:57,654
thematically around some of the sort of

616
00:24:57,654 --> 00:25:01,206
tension points with the predominant white

617
00:25:01,206 --> 00:25:02,666
evangelical subcultures that so many of us

618
00:25:02,666 --> 00:25:07,440
grew up in, I guess, the rest of the

619
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,202
world, whether it's the understanding of

620
00:25:12,202 --> 00:25:14,194
science or the lack of acceptance of

621
00:25:14,194 --> 00:25:16,226
things like evolutionary science that so

622
00:25:16,226 --> 00:25:18,226
many of us experienced in our churches and

623
00:25:18,226 --> 00:25:22,462
our textbooks, whether it's that or

624
00:25:22,462 --> 00:25:24,930
understandings about sexuality, purity,

625
00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:28,366
culture, LGBTQ people, there's a whole

626
00:25:28,366 --> 00:25:30,422
variety of sort of tension points that

627
00:25:30,422 --> 00:25:32,306
people kind of identify that made them

628
00:25:32,306 --> 00:25:34,306
struggle with being part of the white

629
00:25:34,306 --> 00:25:35,494
evangelical movement, the people that I

630
00:25:35,494 --> 00:25:38,058
talk to. And so the reasons are all a

631
00:25:38,058 --> 00:25:39,962
little bit individual. But again, the

632
00:25:39,962 --> 00:25:44,298
experience is similar. And I think there

633
00:25:44,298 --> 00:25:47,114
are some misconceptions about what that

634
00:25:47,114 --> 00:25:48,714
means. It doesn't necessarily mean that

635
00:25:48,714 --> 00:25:51,534
people have abandoned religion altogether

636
00:25:51,534 --> 00:25:56,698
or don't care about spirituality. I think

637
00:25:56,698 --> 00:25:58,366
there's a misperception that people leave

638
00:25:58,366 --> 00:25:59,962
their churches because they want to, quote

639
00:25:59,962 --> 00:26:03,214
unquote, sin. And certainly people change

640
00:26:03,214 --> 00:26:05,022
their behavior when they leave their

641
00:26:05,022 --> 00:26:06,606
churches, sometimes because they've

642
00:26:06,606 --> 00:26:08,930
changed their beliefs. But in my own

643
00:26:08,930 --> 00:26:11,186
experience and in talking to many others

644
00:26:11,186 --> 00:26:14,340
for this book, it's much more complex than

645
00:26:14,340 --> 00:26:16,678
that, and it's very painful. I think for a

646
00:26:16,678 --> 00:26:18,066
lot of people, it'd actually be much

647
00:26:18,066 --> 00:26:20,774
easier to stay. This is the harder path,

648
00:26:20,774 --> 00:26:23,874
but it's, for a lot of people, the more

649
00:26:23,874 --> 00:26:27,494
authentic path. Yeah, absolutely. That's

650
00:26:27,494 --> 00:26:30,566
been my experience of so many that I know.

651
00:26:30,566 --> 00:26:32,110
And it feels sort of like the floor has

652
00:26:32,110 --> 00:26:34,346
fallen out from underneath you. Or I've

653
00:26:34,346 --> 00:26:36,458
heard people say, once the clouds parted,

654
00:26:36,458 --> 00:26:37,866
I wish they would have gone back, because

655
00:26:37,866 --> 00:26:39,706
to keep your community would certainly be

656
00:26:39,706 --> 00:26:43,230
an easier route in some ways. And some

657
00:26:43,230 --> 00:26:46,302
people go that route, just sort of live

658
00:26:46,302 --> 00:26:49,006
with the cognitive dissonance and try to

659
00:26:49,006 --> 00:26:51,182
sort of push it to the side, and others

660
00:26:51,182 --> 00:26:54,174
choose to leave. And either way, it's a

661
00:26:54,174 --> 00:26:57,010
hard journey once there's some questions

662
00:26:57,010 --> 00:26:59,346
or people feel like they don't align with

663
00:26:59,346 --> 00:27:01,906
some of the behavioral management that has

664
00:27:01,906 --> 00:27:04,210
been passed on to them in different ways.

665
00:27:04,210 --> 00:27:06,886
But I want to step into this question as

666
00:27:06,886 --> 00:27:10,726
we think about the subculture of that, how

667
00:27:10,726 --> 00:27:12,646
it influenced what we mentioned earlier,

668
00:27:12,646 --> 00:27:14,598
some of the christian nationalism we're

669
00:27:14,598 --> 00:27:16,886
seeing more prominently now and very much

670
00:27:16,886 --> 00:27:18,966
more on display in sort of January 6 and

671
00:27:18,966 --> 00:27:21,226
that type of thing. But I'd love for you

672
00:27:21,226 --> 00:27:23,098
to discuss, I know as a reporter you've

673
00:27:23,098 --> 00:27:24,902
got to stay very descriptive and

674
00:27:24,902 --> 00:27:27,414
analytical, so feel free to stay in that

675
00:27:27,414 --> 00:27:30,134
realm. But would you discuss with us the

676
00:27:30,134 --> 00:27:32,954
broader societal or cultural impact of the

677
00:27:32,954 --> 00:27:35,034
evangelical movement, particularly in the

678
00:27:35,034 --> 00:27:37,114
context of some american politics and

679
00:27:37,114 --> 00:27:39,040
societal issues that you're seeing right

680
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,378
now of the evangelical. Movement or the

681
00:27:42,378 --> 00:27:44,606
exvangelical movement? Sorry? The ex

682
00:27:44,606 --> 00:27:46,754
evangelical movement. Yes. Thank you.

683
00:27:46,754 --> 00:27:48,114
Yeah. I mean, I'm happy to talk about

684
00:27:48,114 --> 00:27:52,478
either one, but I think the evangelical

685
00:27:52,478 --> 00:27:54,180
movement's impact is well established.

686
00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:57,940
Right. The majority of the republican base

687
00:27:57,940 --> 00:28:01,074
and continues to have an, even as white

688
00:28:01,074 --> 00:28:02,486
Christianity shrinks, continues to have

689
00:28:02,486 --> 00:28:05,106
sort of an outsized impact on american

690
00:28:05,106 --> 00:28:07,350
politics. But the exvangelical movement

691
00:28:07,350 --> 00:28:10,918
is, I think, more loosely defined. And I

692
00:28:10,918 --> 00:28:12,266
want to be clear. I didn't write this book

693
00:28:12,266 --> 00:28:14,650
to tell people how to vote or who to

694
00:28:14,650 --> 00:28:17,658
support for any office. That was not my

695
00:28:17,658 --> 00:28:20,274
interest. But I was seeing all of this

696
00:28:20,274 --> 00:28:23,626
conversation around sort of the post

697
00:28:23,626 --> 00:28:26,426
evangelical experience and this term

698
00:28:26,426 --> 00:28:27,994
deconstruction that's become really

699
00:28:27,994 --> 00:28:30,026
popular online the last few years, which

700
00:28:30,026 --> 00:28:32,894
describes this process of rethinking what

701
00:28:32,894 --> 00:28:35,522
you believe and trying to understand it

702
00:28:35,522 --> 00:28:37,214
maybe differently or ask questions you

703
00:28:37,214 --> 00:28:41,666
hadn't asked before. But I think that a

704
00:28:41,666 --> 00:28:43,634
couple of things, I think we don't fully

705
00:28:43,634 --> 00:28:46,338
know what that movement will mean. I think

706
00:28:46,338 --> 00:28:49,122
it's part of a larger shift away from

707
00:28:49,122 --> 00:28:50,486
religion, although that doesn't, as we

708
00:28:50,486 --> 00:28:52,294
just discussed, doesn't necessarily mean

709
00:28:52,294 --> 00:28:55,270
that everybody who leaves an evangelical

710
00:28:55,270 --> 00:28:58,722
church is becoming secular or will stay

711
00:28:58,722 --> 00:29:01,874
secular. But we do know that the category

712
00:29:01,874 --> 00:29:04,054
that sociologists and pollsters call the

713
00:29:04,054 --> 00:29:07,546
nuns N-O-N-E-S O N E S has now become

714
00:29:07,546 --> 00:29:09,834
larger in the US than white evangelicalism

715
00:29:09,834 --> 00:29:13,182
which I think could have tremendous impact

716
00:29:13,182 --> 00:29:14,698
on american politics going a You're

717
00:29:14,698 --> 00:29:17,594
talking about a real erosion of the

718
00:29:17,594 --> 00:29:19,754
republican base and that's growth in

719
00:29:19,754 --> 00:29:22,430
something that's much less defined and

720
00:29:22,430 --> 00:29:25,778
much more liberal and secular And I think

721
00:29:25,778 --> 00:29:28,578
it's a product of a couple of different

722
00:29:28,578 --> 00:29:29,554
trends or historical events that have kind

723
00:29:29,554 --> 00:29:32,114
of happened at the same time One is just

724
00:29:32,114 --> 00:29:35,806
demographic change The country is becoming

725
00:29:35,806 --> 00:29:37,502
less white a less religious as really

726
00:29:37,502 --> 00:29:39,074
whole And that's really hitting

727
00:29:39,074 --> 00:29:41,094
Christianity the hardest because it's the

728
00:29:41,094 --> 00:29:43,414
dominant religion here Social media is can

729
00:29:43,414 --> 00:29:45,762
big factor People can find one another now

730
00:29:45,762 --> 00:29:47,174
online and have a conversation about

731
00:29:47,174 --> 00:29:51,026
anything And I think these hashtags a

732
00:29:51,026 --> 00:29:52,714
emerged out of a shared experience and

733
00:29:52,714 --> 00:29:55,062
about desire to talk about it And then of

734
00:29:55,062 --> 00:29:56,570
course we talked about Trumpism And

735
00:29:56,570 --> 00:29:58,906
Trumpism is just kind of I think the tip

736
00:29:58,906 --> 00:30:03,434
of the iceberg It's a symptom of

737
00:30:03,434 --> 00:30:05,146
politicization long term increasing

738
00:30:05,146 --> 00:30:08,654
politicization of the religious movement

739
00:30:08,654 --> 00:30:11,114
That was evangelicalism I think again how

740
00:30:11,114 --> 00:30:12,686
politically all shakes out politically and

741
00:30:12,686 --> 00:30:15,390
culturally will remain to be seen But I

742
00:30:15,390 --> 00:30:16,514
think churches are paying attention One of

743
00:30:16,514 --> 00:30:19,986
the in I talk about in the book is some

744
00:30:19,986 --> 00:30:22,626
criticism from churches and some prominent

745
00:30:22,626 --> 00:30:25,462
pastors as well as some christian

746
00:30:25,462 --> 00:30:28,294
evangelical thinkers who have tried to

747
00:30:28,294 --> 00:30:31,382
understand this move away from

748
00:30:31,382 --> 00:30:33,526
evangelicalism and Christianity among

749
00:30:33,526 --> 00:30:35,126
especially many younger people And so

750
00:30:35,126 --> 00:30:38,026
it'll also be interesting to see how

751
00:30:38,026 --> 00:30:39,498
churches respond I think some are

752
00:30:39,498 --> 00:30:42,698
responding Some are trying to become less

753
00:30:42,698 --> 00:30:48,026
political or more open to questions and a

754
00:30:48,026 --> 00:30:50,234
diverse range of points of view There's

755
00:30:50,234 --> 00:30:53,206
just been a lot of ink spilled though

756
00:30:53,206 --> 00:30:54,778
about white evangelicalism and christian

757
00:30:54,778 --> 00:30:55,726
nationalism and the politics of the

758
00:30:55,726 --> 00:30:57,386
movement and the history of the movement

759
00:30:57,386 --> 00:30:59,134
And it's all very a and I cite a lot of

760
00:30:59,134 --> 00:31:02,474
those sources in my book But what I really

761
00:31:02,474 --> 00:31:05,186
wanted to do was talk about what people

762
00:31:05,186 --> 00:31:08,066
raised in this world which is have lot of

763
00:31:08,066 --> 00:31:12,034
people have seen and know and the

764
00:31:12,034 --> 00:31:15,086
perspective that we bring to these

765
00:31:15,086 --> 00:31:16,482
conversations because I think it's much

766
00:31:16,482 --> 00:31:19,626
more intimate and sort of granular than

767
00:31:19,626 --> 00:31:20,646
some of these academic conversations a

768
00:31:20,646 --> 00:31:22,582
have happened for a long time So I hope

769
00:31:22,582 --> 00:31:24,294
it's valuable in that regard too That will

770
00:31:24,294 --> 00:31:27,446
just inform some of these conversations No

771
00:31:27,446 --> 00:31:30,182
I think you're right I think absolutely

772
00:31:30,182 --> 00:31:33,098
And I think we'll continue to watch and

773
00:31:33,098 --> 00:31:34,918
see what happens But I think that the

774
00:31:34,918 --> 00:31:36,618
shared experience of people finding these

775
00:31:36,618 --> 00:31:38,246
hashtags who may have been told what you

776
00:31:38,246 --> 00:31:43,806
were told about the Smurfs too Were you

777
00:31:43,806 --> 00:31:46,366
told that No I was not a God I missed a

778
00:31:46,366 --> 00:31:48,606
lot of things being in another country but

779
00:31:48,606 --> 00:31:51,258
yeah no I've heard that from the as well

780
00:31:51,258 --> 00:31:54,318
that the Smurfs were demonic Demonic Yeah

781
00:31:54,318 --> 00:31:58,458
I was like I just want to watch the Smurfs

782
00:31:58,458 --> 00:32:00,126
guys I wasn't scarred by that or anything

783
00:32:00,126 --> 00:32:02,546
I just think it's funny now Oh it's

784
00:32:02,546 --> 00:32:04,114
hilarious a I was actually Halloween Smurf

785
00:32:04,114 --> 00:32:05,138
at for Halloween one a which I know had

786
00:32:05,138 --> 00:32:07,666
lot of people had to miss Halloween from

787
00:32:07,666 --> 00:32:09,258
their evangelical upbringing too So I feel

788
00:32:09,258 --> 00:32:10,594
like that little bit privileged that I

789
00:32:10,594 --> 00:32:12,338
didn't have to miss individuals Was there

790
00:32:12,338 --> 00:32:14,646
a particular story that moved you in any

791
00:32:14,646 --> 00:32:16,246
particular way or changed your perspective

792
00:32:16,246 --> 00:32:21,274
at all on the whole evangelical community

793
00:32:21,274 --> 00:32:24,220
It was so kind of cathartic and

794
00:32:24,220 --> 00:32:27,786
fascinating to talk to people I called up

795
00:32:27,786 --> 00:32:29,226
old friends I reached out to people I

796
00:32:29,226 --> 00:32:31,706
didn't know that were on social media I

797
00:32:31,706 --> 00:32:35,294
talked to authors that I'd admired and

798
00:32:35,294 --> 00:32:37,678
kind of tried to form collage sort of

799
00:32:37,678 --> 00:32:40,126
composite collage of some of these

800
00:32:40,126 --> 00:32:42,254
perspectives and a range of different

801
00:32:42,254 --> 00:32:45,954
experiences So I can't just pick one But I

802
00:32:45,954 --> 00:32:47,826
will say I think the types of

803
00:32:47,826 --> 00:32:49,666
conversations that maybe were the most

804
00:32:49,666 --> 00:32:52,574
informative for me were the dialogues I

805
00:32:52,574 --> 00:32:54,846
had with non white Christians who had

806
00:32:54,846 --> 00:32:56,402
experience in white evangelical spaces I

807
00:32:56,402 --> 00:33:01,398
mean I knew growing up a we were taught a

808
00:33:01,398 --> 00:33:03,046
lot of good things that least on paper

809
00:33:03,046 --> 00:33:05,720
that we were taught that everybody was

810
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,014
made in God's image that racism was wrong

811
00:33:09,014 --> 00:33:10,506
and that God loved everyone equally And I

812
00:33:10,506 --> 00:33:12,666
so grateful that I was taught those things

813
00:33:12,666 --> 00:33:15,206
and I obviously believe those things But

814
00:33:15,206 --> 00:33:17,738
our churches and our schools didn't look

815
00:33:17,738 --> 00:33:21,918
really like America They were

816
00:33:21,918 --> 00:33:23,358
overwhelmingly white spaces And I don't

817
00:33:23,358 --> 00:33:27,358
think at the time I really understood what

818
00:33:27,358 --> 00:33:31,760
that meant Know the ways that

819
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,226
marginalizing certain voices shifts the

820
00:33:33,226 --> 00:33:35,146
person The people who aren't in the room

821
00:33:35,146 --> 00:33:39,266
aren't part of the discussion And so

822
00:33:39,266 --> 00:33:42,066
talking know black christians like Jamar

823
00:33:42,066 --> 00:33:43,234
Tisby about their experiences in these

824
00:33:43,234 --> 00:33:45,974
spaces and the way that that felt and

825
00:33:45,974 --> 00:33:49,160
looked was really I mean it's kind of

826
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,318
heartbreaking but also informative For

827
00:33:51,318 --> 00:33:53,874
know Dr Tisby and some of the people in

828
00:33:53,874 --> 00:33:57,046
his circles talk about decolonizing

829
00:33:57,046 --> 00:33:58,698
Christianity know white Christianity more

830
00:33:58,698 --> 00:34:01,510
than deconstructing it And I think that's

831
00:34:01,510 --> 00:34:05,670
valuable really fascinating and valuable

832
00:34:05,670 --> 00:34:08,060
perspective because Jesus was

833
00:34:08,060 --> 00:34:10,842
fundamentally about inclusion I believe

834
00:34:10,842 --> 00:34:12,846
and elevating voices of people that

835
00:34:12,846 --> 00:34:15,646
weren't always elevated And I think that

836
00:34:15,646 --> 00:34:17,710
something I wonder about a lot is how

837
00:34:17,710 --> 00:34:20,014
different our churches would look if

838
00:34:20,014 --> 00:34:23,578
people of color and if women and others

839
00:34:23,578 --> 00:34:25,806
who are not always centered had been

840
00:34:25,806 --> 00:34:27,506
centered and included in a more prominent

841
00:34:27,506 --> 00:34:31,054
way I think we would probably have a

842
00:34:31,054 --> 00:34:32,306
different set of priorities possibly and

843
00:34:32,306 --> 00:34:33,938
it would even shape our theology and it

844
00:34:33,938 --> 00:34:35,806
would probably shape the way we look at

845
00:34:35,806 --> 00:34:37,394
scripture What are the verses that we

846
00:34:37,394 --> 00:34:38,678
highlight and we worry about and we focus

847
00:34:38,678 --> 00:34:42,150
on and what are the ones that we think are

848
00:34:42,150 --> 00:34:45,814
just a vestige of culture I think those

849
00:34:45,814 --> 00:34:47,414
questions cannot be answered in isolation

850
00:34:47,414 --> 00:34:50,780
or just by one kind of person I think

851
00:34:50,780 --> 00:34:53,738
about that a lot too And my favorite thing

852
00:34:53,738 --> 00:34:55,306
about Jesus and one of the reasons I just

853
00:34:55,306 --> 00:35:02,810
can't let him go is because of how

854
00:35:02,810 --> 00:35:04,154
inclusive he I once again I think about

855
00:35:04,154 --> 00:35:06,846
that a lot too because I think Jesus was

856
00:35:06,846 --> 00:35:08,814
so inclusive I mean just the way he

857
00:35:08,814 --> 00:35:10,862
interacted With women with people who were

858
00:35:10,862 --> 00:35:12,602
oppressed is something that is I want to

859
00:35:12,602 --> 00:35:15,746
be like that's And so yeah that's one of

860
00:35:15,746 --> 00:35:17,586
the things that I see him often

861
00:35:17,586 --> 00:35:19,746
misrepresented in evangelical lot of white

862
00:35:19,746 --> 00:35:22,146
evangelical spaces especially in the

863
00:35:22,146 --> 00:35:25,154
christian nationalism for a very extreme

864
00:35:25,154 --> 00:35:28,134
example But yeah I do think that over time

865
00:35:28,134 --> 00:35:30,438
if you and I had both been in circles

866
00:35:30,438 --> 00:35:34,178
where it wasn't a lot of just white men

867
00:35:34,178 --> 00:35:35,878
preaching the sermons even a the

868
00:35:35,878 --> 00:35:38,886
theological books read lot of us read were

869
00:35:38,886 --> 00:35:41,186
written by white men and translated into

870
00:35:41,186 --> 00:35:42,778
Spanish for Indonesian or Malay for know

871
00:35:42,778 --> 00:35:43,866
like these other languages that I was

872
00:35:43,866 --> 00:35:47,654
exposed to a lot of the people writing and

873
00:35:47,654 --> 00:35:49,706
preaching were know this industry And

874
00:35:49,706 --> 00:35:51,066
Kristen Covez Dumay when she came on the

875
00:35:51,066 --> 00:35:53,806
podcast talked a lot about the publishing

876
00:35:53,806 --> 00:35:55,326
industry And you you go into that, little

877
00:35:55,326 --> 00:35:58,106
bit of that too how influential it was in

878
00:35:58,106 --> 00:36:00,990
white evangelicalism and the books people

879
00:36:00,990 --> 00:36:03,586
a it is centering a a perspective when

880
00:36:03,586 --> 00:36:08,340
there's a whole world of diverse opinions

881
00:36:08,340 --> 00:36:11,746
As can NPR journalist though can I Just

882
00:36:11,746 --> 00:36:13,986
say quickly I think there is another ditch

883
00:36:13,986 --> 00:36:17,026
people sometimes fall into which is to say

884
00:36:17,026 --> 00:36:19,606
well most people don't say it explicitly

885
00:36:19,606 --> 00:36:20,886
but to essentially say well Jesus would

886
00:36:20,886 --> 00:36:22,534
have been liberal. Democrat and a liberal

887
00:36:22,534 --> 00:36:26,054
And I just think that I don't like any of

888
00:36:26,054 --> 00:36:27,846
that personally I would rather that we

889
00:36:27,846 --> 00:36:29,398
just sort of I mean I think we just have

890
00:36:29,398 --> 00:36:31,098
to acknowledge though at we all looks at

891
00:36:31,098 --> 00:36:33,546
anyone who looks at the Bible and takes it

892
00:36:33,546 --> 00:36:36,346
seriously in one way for another as

893
00:36:36,346 --> 00:36:38,282
instructive for their lives We all bring

894
00:36:38,282 --> 00:36:42,186
our perspectives and our life experiences

895
00:36:42,186 --> 00:36:44,266
and our biases and I think we have to be

896
00:36:44,266 --> 00:36:45,934
honest about the fact that different

897
00:36:45,934 --> 00:36:47,214
people have highlighted different things

898
00:36:47,214 --> 00:36:49,134
And I'm not saying that. only

899
00:36:49,134 --> 00:36:50,558
conservatives do that Or only white men do

900
00:36:50,558 --> 00:36:52,334
a But it's just a human tendency that we

901
00:36:52,334 --> 00:36:54,738
have to be honest about I think if we'd

902
00:36:54,738 --> 00:36:56,386
start with that we'd have and more

903
00:36:56,386 --> 00:36:58,866
interesting conversation and probably more

904
00:36:58,866 --> 00:37:01,134
authentic Absolutely Yeah And I mean it's

905
00:37:01,134 --> 00:37:05,586
hard to even picture Jesus in an american

906
00:37:05,586 --> 00:37:07,490
political a because it's like a middle

907
00:37:07,490 --> 00:37:11,014
eastern man I don't know It's such a It's

908
00:37:11,014 --> 00:37:14,886
kind of a silly a it's kind of a

909
00:37:14,886 --> 00:37:16,134
ridiculous project Overall which is the

910
00:37:16,134 --> 00:37:19,426
whole like Jesus and John Wayne a

911
00:37:19,426 --> 00:37:21,626
picturing him as a cowboy is a a bit of a

912
00:37:21,626 --> 00:37:24,726
stretch for me But anyway but you're an

913
00:37:24,726 --> 00:37:26,730
NPR journalist now You've grown up in this

914
00:37:26,730 --> 00:37:28,726
environment How do you see this role of

915
00:37:28,726 --> 00:37:32,266
media in sort of shaping this conversation

916
00:37:32,266 --> 00:37:34,554
around evangelical stories I think

917
00:37:34,554 --> 00:37:35,566
particularly around we're seeing more

918
00:37:35,566 --> 00:37:38,414
things come out in the press around

919
00:37:38,414 --> 00:37:39,758
spiritual abuse that's contributed to many

920
00:37:39,758 --> 00:37:41,646
who have ended up in this ex evangelical

921
00:37:41,646 --> 00:37:42,946
community What is sort of the role that

922
00:37:42,946 --> 00:37:48,418
you think the press can play Well I think

923
00:37:48,418 --> 00:37:50,734
it's actually gotten better at least over

924
00:37:50,734 --> 00:37:54,418
the course of my career 20 plus years or

925
00:37:54,418 --> 00:37:58,006
so at this point I think I see more well

926
00:37:58,006 --> 00:38:01,110
there are more publications out there and

927
00:38:01,110 --> 00:38:04,930
I see more people with frankly knowledge

928
00:38:04,930 --> 00:38:06,726
and experience in these communities in

929
00:38:06,726 --> 00:38:09,030
national media And I think that's a good

930
00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:11,354
thing I think too often evangelicals a

931
00:38:11,354 --> 00:38:13,546
sometimes reduced to and few talking heads

932
00:38:13,546 --> 00:38:16,218
and a few representatives of the movement

933
00:38:16,218 --> 00:38:17,978
when evangelicalism is such a big movement

934
00:38:17,978 --> 00:38:21,738
and it's not just white and it's not just

935
00:38:21,738 --> 00:38:24,298
one thing And so I think it's important to

936
00:38:24,298 --> 00:38:26,366
hear from people who've lived it not just

937
00:38:26,366 --> 00:38:28,154
their leaders who have an agenda that may

938
00:38:28,154 --> 00:38:31,246
or may not always align with them. people

939
00:38:31,246 --> 00:38:33,506
who follow them And that includes people

940
00:38:33,506 --> 00:38:35,860
who left it and who know this world

941
00:38:35,860 --> 00:38:40,594
firsthand and can sort of think you know

942
00:38:40,594 --> 00:38:43,860
one more voice in these larger discussions

943
00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:48,258
It's too easy just to know one famous

944
00:38:48,258 --> 00:38:49,598
leader and I'm not going to name names

945
00:38:49,598 --> 00:38:52,514
here but we can think of some of the and

946
00:38:52,514 --> 00:38:54,886
ask about the evangelical vote in Iowa or

947
00:38:54,886 --> 00:38:56,918
whatever And I've done that but it's more

948
00:38:56,918 --> 00:38:58,518
texture than that And that's why I think

949
00:38:58,518 --> 00:39:00,806
as a journalist I try to get out and talk

950
00:39:00,806 --> 00:39:02,614
to average people as much as I can and

951
00:39:02,614 --> 00:39:05,674
listen to what they're saying and try to

952
00:39:05,674 --> 00:39:06,758
understand how they're thinking But yeah

953
00:39:06,758 --> 00:39:08,026
again one of the reasons I wanted to write

954
00:39:08,026 --> 00:39:10,026
this book is just to keep creating about

955
00:39:10,026 --> 00:39:13,310
space to talk about the fact that there

956
00:39:13,310 --> 00:39:15,066
isn't just one evangelical experience And

957
00:39:15,066 --> 00:39:17,710
I think for journalists it's important to

958
00:39:17,710 --> 00:39:21,342
talk about all of that as honestly as

959
00:39:21,342 --> 00:39:23,902
possible and that requires having so

960
00:39:23,902 --> 00:39:26,258
context Yeah that's so good I know the

961
00:39:26,258 --> 00:39:29,714
life of a journalist is so busy There's

962
00:39:29,714 --> 00:39:31,698
just hard hours Deadlines come fast You're

963
00:39:31,698 --> 00:39:34,386
on planes and trains and dealing with

964
00:39:34,386 --> 00:39:35,266
getting to political rallies and stuff

965
00:39:35,266 --> 00:39:37,826
like that But to be able to take the time

966
00:39:37,826 --> 00:39:39,814
to interview people who don't maybe have a

967
00:39:39,814 --> 00:39:42,374
big platform just to hear from an average

968
00:39:42,374 --> 00:39:45,846
person in the pew or whatever can be

969
00:39:45,846 --> 00:39:48,374
really impactful Those parts of the

970
00:39:48,374 --> 00:39:49,926
stories that I read they stand out They

971
00:39:49,926 --> 00:39:51,318
really do because we kind of hear over and

972
00:39:51,318 --> 00:39:52,506
over again the people with the big

973
00:39:52,506 --> 00:39:53,818
platforms We kind of know what they're

974
00:39:53,818 --> 00:39:55,274
going to say There's management lot of

975
00:39:55,274 --> 00:39:56,966
image management with that but sometimes

976
00:39:56,966 --> 00:39:59,926
just talking to your average person really

977
00:39:59,926 --> 00:40:01,674
gets you some really gold nuggets there

978
00:40:01,674 --> 00:40:03,790
And so thank you for doing that work

979
00:40:03,790 --> 00:40:06,942
Really based on your research and your

980
00:40:06,942 --> 00:40:08,734
personal insights I'd be interested to

981
00:40:08,734 --> 00:40:11,130
know what advice you would give to

982
00:40:11,130 --> 00:40:12,894
somebody who's sort of navigating this

983
00:40:12,894 --> 00:40:14,906
journey right now We probably have people

984
00:40:14,906 --> 00:40:17,886
listening that are sort of on the fence

985
00:40:17,886 --> 00:40:20,434
about whether to stay evangelical 1ft in

986
00:40:20,434 --> 00:40:23,506
1ft out maybe those who are freshly left

987
00:40:23,506 --> 00:40:26,306
but some of those who are still trying to

988
00:40:26,306 --> 00:40:30,214
navigate their way out of it Were there

989
00:40:30,214 --> 00:40:32,038
any patterns that you saw as you were

990
00:40:32,038 --> 00:40:33,398
interviewing people Any advice that you

991
00:40:33,398 --> 00:40:38,566
have based on what you researched and read

992
00:40:38,566 --> 00:40:41,386
I mean I'm really hesitant to give advice

993
00:40:41,386 --> 00:40:47,706
because I'm a journalist and that's just

994
00:40:47,706 --> 00:40:49,146
not what I do I guess the only advice I

995
00:40:49,146 --> 00:40:51,946
would give would just be as me Sarah not

996
00:40:51,946 --> 00:40:54,126
as clear, journalist To be clear I'm not

997
00:40:54,126 --> 00:40:57,374
an expert. I'm not an expert Everybody is

998
00:40:57,374 --> 00:41:00,734
on their own journey I think if I could

999
00:41:00,734 --> 00:41:02,618
give advice to myself going back my

1000
00:41:02,618 --> 00:41:05,282
younger self that's probably what I most

1001
00:41:05,282 --> 00:41:07,826
comfortable saying I would tell myself to

1002
00:41:07,826 --> 00:41:13,010
not be afraid of questions to not be

1003
00:41:13,010 --> 00:41:14,786
afraid to learn Sometimes I feel like

1004
00:41:14,786 --> 00:41:17,902
looking back I had to sort of read go to

1005
00:41:17,902 --> 00:41:19,650
museums that talked about evolution or

1006
00:41:19,650 --> 00:41:22,726
read books about the history of religion

1007
00:41:22,726 --> 00:41:23,574
It's almost like squinting because I

1008
00:41:23,574 --> 00:41:25,554
didn't want to see something that would

1009
00:41:25,554 --> 00:41:28,242
rock my faith or threaten my belief system

1010
00:41:28,242 --> 00:41:31,034
because it is so scary to think about

1011
00:41:31,034 --> 00:41:31,786
changing your mind about something And

1012
00:41:31,786 --> 00:41:33,866
then it's sort of like well where does it

1013
00:41:33,866 --> 00:41:38,938
go And I just want to fully acknowledge

1014
00:41:38,938 --> 00:41:41,306
that fear And I think if I could go back

1015
00:41:41,306 --> 00:41:44,526
to my younger self I would say don't be

1016
00:41:44,526 --> 00:41:46,926
afraid of questions Try to find trusted

1017
00:41:46,926 --> 00:41:48,350
people whether that's people in your

1018
00:41:48,350 --> 00:41:51,840
church or outside of it people who are of

1019
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,426
goodwill and that love you and tell them

1020
00:41:55,426 --> 00:41:57,826
what you thinking about and you have to

1021
00:41:57,826 --> 00:42:00,574
choose those people wisely But I think I

1022
00:42:00,574 --> 00:42:02,258
found them to some extent Even at my a

1023
00:42:02,258 --> 00:42:06,626
college I had that lot of professors that

1024
00:42:06,626 --> 00:42:07,950
were very thoughtful people and that I

1025
00:42:07,950 --> 00:42:09,526
could talk to about some of these things

1026
00:42:09,526 --> 00:42:13,606
like not everything all at once but pieces

1027
00:42:13,606 --> 00:42:16,774
of it And then I have an aunt who is not

1028
00:42:16,774 --> 00:42:18,978
religious but is spiritual And she's been

1029
00:42:18,978 --> 00:42:21,226
someone in my adult life who's been really

1030
00:42:21,226 --> 00:42:22,966
helpful supporting just sort of supporting

1031
00:42:22,966 --> 00:42:25,770
me and loving me regardless of what I

1032
00:42:25,770 --> 00:42:29,706
think with no strings attached for myself

1033
00:42:29,706 --> 00:42:31,306
I think there have been times when I felt

1034
00:42:31,306 --> 00:42:33,310
like I didn't know if it was okay to pray

1035
00:42:33,310 --> 00:42:35,966
if I didn't really believe or if I wasn't

1036
00:42:35,966 --> 00:42:38,334
sure what I believed Was I just talking to

1037
00:42:38,334 --> 00:42:41,818
thin air or was my prayer insincere or

1038
00:42:41,818 --> 00:42:45,118
something But I think it's okay to pray

1039
00:42:45,118 --> 00:42:46,446
anytime you want And I don't think you

1040
00:42:46,446 --> 00:42:49,726
have to know exactly what you think about

1041
00:42:49,726 --> 00:42:51,666
that's I think something that's been kind

1042
00:42:51,666 --> 00:42:53,746
of nice for me as I've gotten a little bit

1043
00:42:53,746 --> 00:42:55,654
older is that I almost feel like I have

1044
00:42:55,654 --> 00:42:57,318
that impulse to pray more now than I did

1045
00:42:57,318 --> 00:43:01,174
when I felt like I had to figure things

1046
00:43:01,174 --> 00:43:07,250
out first I don't think that God needs me

1047
00:43:07,250 --> 00:43:09,122
to have a systematic theology worked out

1048
00:43:09,122 --> 00:43:11,386
before I say also prayer And I also look

1049
00:43:11,386 --> 00:43:13,318
around the world and I realize that humans

1050
00:43:13,318 --> 00:43:15,690
have prayed in all kinds of different ways

1051
00:43:15,690 --> 00:43:19,820
and it's a very human impulse And I think

1052
00:43:19,820 --> 00:43:22,894
that that is beautiful and should be part

1053
00:43:22,894 --> 00:43:26,446
of that process too for those who want it

1054
00:43:26,446 --> 00:43:29,646
to be Great advice to your younger self

1055
00:43:29,646 --> 00:43:33,566
And we all gleaned from it it's beautiful

1056
00:43:33,566 --> 00:43:35,506
As you think about the people that you

1057
00:43:35,506 --> 00:43:38,002
interviewed for this book and then what

1058
00:43:38,002 --> 00:43:40,482
you're seeing kind of happen right now We

1059
00:43:40,482 --> 00:43:43,794
are in a election year There's a lot of

1060
00:43:43,794 --> 00:43:48,046
talk out there We see a lot of the Gen Z

1061
00:43:48,046 --> 00:43:49,846
that are eligible to vote this time. that

1062
00:43:49,846 --> 00:43:53,026
weren't last time And as you mentioned

1063
00:43:53,026 --> 00:43:55,046
they're much more diverse They've been

1064
00:43:55,046 --> 00:43:56,898
raised to social media My 16 year old told

1065
00:43:56,898 --> 00:43:59,318
me the other day she's like we look at

1066
00:43:59,318 --> 00:44:00,886
millennials and they're like the last

1067
00:44:00,886 --> 00:44:02,854
generation a wasn't raised with a phone

1068
00:44:02,854 --> 00:44:05,290
Sometimes we kind of envy them Like she

1069
00:44:05,290 --> 00:44:08,666
likes to watch early 2000 movies because

1070
00:44:08,666 --> 00:44:10,138
like that time before we have happening

1071
00:44:10,138 --> 00:44:11,914
lot of changes happening certainly our

1072
00:44:11,914 --> 00:44:13,270
society And certainly the ex angelicals

1073
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:16,314
here in the US are a huge part of it So

1074
00:44:16,314 --> 00:44:18,762
what future developments or trends do you

1075
00:44:18,762 --> 00:44:19,726
anticipate for the exvangelical movement

1076
00:44:19,726 --> 00:44:26,382
and maybe its sort of impact on broader

1077
00:44:26,382 --> 00:44:27,058
religious and cultural landscapes Again I

1078
00:44:27,058 --> 00:44:28,706
don't like to make a ton of predictions

1079
00:44:28,706 --> 00:44:31,378
It's funny though I've had similar

1080
00:44:31,378 --> 00:44:33,826
conversations with my kids especially my

1081
00:44:33,826 --> 00:44:36,214
younger one about nostalgia for a time

1082
00:44:36,214 --> 00:44:39,378
that he never knew and that I don't

1083
00:44:39,378 --> 00:44:41,400
remember that well and I'm sure you don't

1084
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,830
either that well But yes nonetheless I

1085
00:44:45,830 --> 00:44:48,598
guess I have more questions than

1086
00:44:48,598 --> 00:44:51,898
predictions I'm curious to see where sort

1087
00:44:51,898 --> 00:44:54,774
of younger exvangelicals people who maybe

1088
00:44:54,774 --> 00:44:56,298
were raised with some evangelical

1089
00:44:56,298 --> 00:44:57,914
tradition but have sort of stepped away

1090
00:44:57,914 --> 00:44:59,818
from it where they go if they don't have

1091
00:44:59,818 --> 00:45:00,938
their own religious tradition This is

1092
00:45:00,938 --> 00:45:03,094
something that I touch on in the book is

1093
00:45:03,094 --> 00:45:04,590
just the challenge of figuring out when

1094
00:45:04,590 --> 00:45:06,746
you form your own family how to form that

1095
00:45:06,746 --> 00:45:08,366
family and how to raise your kids and what

1096
00:45:08,366 --> 00:45:12,206
to tell them if you yourself are

1097
00:45:12,206 --> 00:45:13,682
deconstructing or uncertain about what

1098
00:45:13,682 --> 00:45:18,674
your want to. attach your identity to And

1099
00:45:18,674 --> 00:45:20,626
I'm also curious about how churches

1100
00:45:20,626 --> 00:45:23,650
respond I touched on this a moment ago but

1101
00:45:23,650 --> 00:45:27,702
will churches figure out ways to I mean

1102
00:45:27,702 --> 00:45:29,526
genuinely welcome people who are not just

1103
00:45:29,526 --> 00:45:33,094
say you can come and be with us and we'll

1104
00:45:33,094 --> 00:45:35,974
tolerate you but will there be more

1105
00:45:35,974 --> 00:45:41,910
religious spaces for people who don't feel

1106
00:45:41,910 --> 00:45:44,666
comfortable with christian traditional

1107
00:45:44,666 --> 00:45:46,426
evangelical or christian set of beliefs I

1108
00:45:46,426 --> 00:45:49,626
visited a church like that in Nashville

1109
00:45:49,626 --> 00:45:51,466
and wrote about it sort of later in the

1110
00:45:51,466 --> 00:45:53,726
book and it was interesting to see kind of

1111
00:45:53,726 --> 00:45:56,094
how that worked and how that felt And I

1112
00:45:56,094 --> 00:45:59,930
think we might see more in like that

1113
00:45:59,930 --> 00:46:02,078
particularly in again an increasingly

1114
00:46:02,078 --> 00:46:03,134
diverse and secularized society I think

1115
00:46:03,134 --> 00:46:07,330
people are always going to need connection

1116
00:46:07,330 --> 00:46:09,074
and look for meaning but where they find

1117
00:46:09,074 --> 00:46:12,386
it I think might Change a little bit Yeah

1118
00:46:12,386 --> 00:46:14,290
I think so I think we're seeing that here

1119
00:46:14,290 --> 00:46:17,506
on the west coast too A know just finding

1120
00:46:17,506 --> 00:46:19,798
new ways And certainly the pandemic had

1121
00:46:19,798 --> 00:46:22,182
its own factors and a lot of that for a

1122
00:46:22,182 --> 00:46:25,318
lot of people So yeah interesting to hear

1123
00:46:25,318 --> 00:46:27,094
your perspective on that Well I do want to

1124
00:46:27,094 --> 00:46:28,374
ask you one more question and we'll have

1125
00:46:28,374 --> 00:46:31,654
you hang out again later for our Patreon

1126
00:46:31,654 --> 00:46:33,658
our difference makers community But for

1127
00:46:33,658 --> 00:46:35,194
this conversation I do just a to give you

1128
00:46:35,194 --> 00:46:37,466
a chance to let people know if they want

1129
00:46:37,466 --> 00:46:39,946
to read more about what you're writing How

1130
00:46:39,946 --> 00:46:45,066
can people find you Where are you And let

1131
00:46:45,066 --> 00:46:47,166
people know I'm on all the social medias

1132
00:46:47,166 --> 00:46:48,974
pretty much but I'm trying to write more

1133
00:46:48,974 --> 00:46:50,126
and more on substac because I feel like I

1134
00:46:50,126 --> 00:46:52,458
can have nuanced little bit more nuanced a

1135
00:46:52,458 --> 00:46:55,186
and I share a little bit about life on the

1136
00:46:55,186 --> 00:46:58,322
road as a reporter and also sometimes

1137
00:46:58,322 --> 00:47:02,290
personal things I'm and mom of teens and

1138
00:47:02,290 --> 00:47:08,802
tween so to be teen so I'm just Sarah

1139
00:47:08,802 --> 00:47:10,886
McCammon on substac MCCA Mmon And my

1140
00:47:10,886 --> 00:47:13,622
substac is called off the air because it's

1141
00:47:13,622 --> 00:47:17,480
kind of my little side project when I'm

1142
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,826
not on the radio and I'm unfortunately

1143
00:47:20,826 --> 00:47:23,386
still on Twitter and my dms are open but I

1144
00:47:23,386 --> 00:47:26,010
would just encourage everybody to start at

1145
00:47:26,010 --> 00:47:30,726
substack I free to subscribe I do take

1146
00:47:30,726 --> 00:47:32,874
paid subscribers but everything I've never

1147
00:47:32,874 --> 00:47:34,878
put anything behind and paywall so far and

1148
00:47:34,878 --> 00:47:38,650
don't plan on it as long as I am employed

1149
00:47:38,650 --> 00:47:41,150
full time as really journalist So it's

1150
00:47:41,150 --> 00:47:42,894
really just mostly for fun and stay nice

1151
00:47:42,894 --> 00:47:44,550
way to stay in touch with people who are

1152
00:47:44,550 --> 00:47:46,706
interested interested the things I'm

1153
00:47:46,706 --> 00:47:48,862
interested in Awesome Yeah I love your

1154
00:47:48,862 --> 00:47:50,658
substack And everybody go subscribe to the

1155
00:47:50,658 --> 00:47:53,394
substack And if you have a little extra

1156
00:47:53,394 --> 00:47:58,326
money let her be paid for her work Only if

1157
00:47:58,326 --> 00:48:01,880
you want to It's like public media We say

1158
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:06,166
you can but you know Set them into giving

1159
00:48:06,166 --> 00:48:08,866
you a little support Thank you so much for

1160
00:48:08,866 --> 00:48:10,038
this conversation today Sarah It's be so

1161
00:48:10,038 --> 00:48:11,594
great to be able to read your book get to

1162
00:48:11,594 --> 00:48:13,558
know you a little better through your

1163
00:48:13,558 --> 00:48:14,938
writing and through this conversation And

1164
00:48:14,938 --> 00:48:18,794
yeah thank you for the great work that you

1165
00:48:18,794 --> 00:48:21,238
do Thank you so much This has been great

1166
00:48:21,238 --> 00:48:24,382
I'm so grateful for that very nuanced

1167
00:48:24,382 --> 00:48:26,426
conversation with Sarah I just love

1168
00:48:26,426 --> 00:48:29,134
hearing her perspective I loved reading

1169
00:48:29,134 --> 00:48:31,786
her book It's so well written She's a good

1170
00:48:31,786 --> 00:48:33,582
writer but she also brings herself into

1171
00:48:33,582 --> 00:48:36,786
the story Her own personal narrative is so

1172
00:48:36,786 --> 00:48:39,362
compelling but she's in the middle of

1173
00:48:39,362 --> 00:48:40,814
history walking alongside things happening

1174
00:48:40,814 --> 00:48:43,586
with the Donald Trump campaign in real

1175
00:48:43,586 --> 00:48:46,306
time She's very vulnerable about her own

1176
00:48:46,306 --> 00:48:47,954
upbringing in white evangelicalism and in

1177
00:48:47,954 --> 00:48:50,886
her family What that was like for her and

1178
00:48:50,886 --> 00:48:51,974
know includes personal narratives of

1179
00:48:51,974 --> 00:48:55,186
others that she spoke to about the book as

1180
00:48:55,186 --> 00:48:57,726
she was researching this exvangelical

1181
00:48:57,726 --> 00:49:01,802
community with so much nuance so much care

1182
00:49:01,802 --> 00:49:04,506
And it's really beautiful book It really

1183
00:49:04,506 --> 00:49:07,594
helps dig deep For those of you in any

1184
00:49:07,594 --> 00:49:10,234
religious environment the currently or in

1185
00:49:10,234 --> 00:49:14,046
the past you will find this book to be so

1186
00:49:14,046 --> 00:49:16,062
insightful She really brings that lot of

1187
00:49:16,062 --> 00:49:20,042
nuance that we so much need in the

1188
00:49:20,042 --> 00:49:21,374
conversation and she just authentically

1189
00:49:21,374 --> 00:49:24,078
shows us kind of where she's at And a so

1190
00:49:24,078 --> 00:49:26,514
refreshing in management, world of image

1191
00:49:26,514 --> 00:49:28,946
management both in politics and religion

1192
00:49:28,946 --> 00:49:31,218
And so yeah I found her book just so

1193
00:49:31,218 --> 00:49:34,226
compelling So do check it out It's called

1194
00:49:34,226 --> 00:49:36,222
the exvangelicals Loving living and

1195
00:49:36,222 --> 00:49:38,446
leaving the white evangelical church It

1196
00:49:38,446 --> 00:49:40,566
releases on March 19 but go preorder

1197
00:49:40,566 --> 00:49:44,038
because that definitely helps the book

1198
00:49:44,038 --> 00:49:45,846
sales And yeah we want to help people like

1199
00:49:45,846 --> 00:49:47,526
Sarah out because we want to continue to

1200
00:49:47,526 --> 00:49:49,686
hear her voice read her writing and have

1201
00:49:49,686 --> 00:49:51,926
her be there at the table as we're

1202
00:49:51,926 --> 00:49:53,818
learning from her and what she's covering

1203
00:49:53,818 --> 00:49:57,078
in the news as a journalist So a her work

1204
00:49:57,078 --> 00:49:58,854
as a journalist and helping us see the

1205
00:49:58,854 --> 00:50:00,234
nuance and just her courage to walked

1206
00:50:00,234 --> 00:50:01,962
through what she walked through in the

1207
00:50:01,962 --> 00:50:03,658
time of the Donald Trump campaign And one

1208
00:50:03,658 --> 00:50:06,174
that's kind of one of the most compelling

1209
00:50:06,174 --> 00:50:07,486
parts of the book that really kind of

1210
00:50:07,486 --> 00:50:09,754
brought me to a There is just a really

1211
00:50:09,754 --> 00:50:11,278
beautiful moment even the introduction

1212
00:50:11,278 --> 00:50:12,926
that she describes and I can't imagine

1213
00:50:12,926 --> 00:50:14,954
what that was like the trauma that her

1214
00:50:14,954 --> 00:50:18,226
body must have felt by being sort of the

1215
00:50:18,226 --> 00:50:21,522
target of anger lot of this anger and

1216
00:50:21,522 --> 00:50:23,634
frenzy in those moments But she really is

1217
00:50:23,634 --> 00:50:25,186
so courageous stories bring us those to

1218
00:50:25,186 --> 00:50:27,574
and to continue to bring us stories as

1219
00:50:27,574 --> 00:50:29,494
we're in another election year with Donald

1220
00:50:29,494 --> 00:50:32,454
Trump up for president once again And so

1221
00:50:32,454 --> 00:50:34,630
please continue to follow her work once

1222
00:50:34,630 --> 00:50:37,958
again Look for her McCammon, Twitter at

1223
00:50:37,958 --> 00:50:40,150
Sarah McCammon and then also subscribe to

1224
00:50:40,150 --> 00:50:42,026
her substack off the air She's once again

1225
00:50:42,026 --> 00:50:43,834
just a great writer and she brings such

1226
00:50:43,834 --> 00:50:45,818
good insight We really need her voice and

1227
00:50:45,818 --> 00:50:48,778
she truly is making a difference So

1228
00:50:48,778 --> 00:50:50,666
grateful for her to be on the show today

1229
00:50:50,666 --> 00:50:52,886
And for those of you who haven't been

1230
00:50:52,886 --> 00:50:54,826
following her until now I'm so glad to

1231
00:50:54,826 --> 00:50:56,846
introduce you to her and to elevate her

1232
00:50:56,846 --> 00:50:59,278
voice to amplify her out to the world

1233
00:50:59,278 --> 00:51:00,686
Wherever you listen around the world to

1234
00:51:00,686 --> 00:51:02,446
this podcast I do hope you start to follow

1235
00:51:02,446 --> 00:51:05,002
Sarah and I'd love to hear what your

1236
00:51:05,002 --> 00:51:06,850
thoughts were on today's podcast Did this

1237
00:51:06,850 --> 00:51:10,510
bring in up for you in the political sense

1238
00:51:10,510 --> 00:51:12,434
of the Donald Trump campaign or what

1239
00:51:12,434 --> 00:51:14,766
happened in the United States in the 2016

1240
00:51:14,766 --> 00:51:18,946
election cycle or even what's in up this

1241
00:51:18,946 --> 00:51:21,814
year being 2024 or just being a part of an

1242
00:51:21,814 --> 00:51:23,126
ex evangelical community If you identify

1243
00:51:23,126 --> 00:51:24,726
that way I would love to hear what your

1244
00:51:24,726 --> 00:51:27,446
thoughts are about what we discussed today

1245
00:51:27,446 --> 00:51:28,934
and whether this sounded kind of like your

1246
00:51:28,934 --> 00:51:30,058
experience or whether there were

1247
00:51:30,058 --> 00:51:32,566
differences that you want to bring up or

1248
00:51:32,566 --> 00:51:34,890
if you're in any faith community and

1249
00:51:34,890 --> 00:51:37,094
you've been having some questions I do

1250
00:51:37,094 --> 00:51:40,538
just love the way Sarah talked about that

1251
00:51:40,538 --> 00:51:42,778
The fear around asking questions or the

1252
00:51:42,778 --> 00:51:44,258
fear around looking for something outside

1253
00:51:44,258 --> 00:51:47,166
of what you've been taught in your faith

1254
00:51:47,166 --> 00:51:48,654
community The fear around that I just

1255
00:51:48,654 --> 00:51:49,966
loved her honesty and her authenticity

1256
00:51:49,966 --> 00:51:52,142
about it because that is because very real

1257
00:51:52,142 --> 00:51:53,666
experience because you don't always know

1258
00:51:53,666 --> 00:51:55,442
where it will lead What will this mean in

1259
00:51:55,442 --> 00:51:59,314
terms of if I leave this faith community

1260
00:51:59,314 --> 00:52:01,634
practicing my religion in this particular

1261
00:52:01,634 --> 00:52:05,826
way in this denomination or in this or of

1262
00:52:05,826 --> 00:52:08,614
my faith or even your faith in general

1263
00:52:08,614 --> 00:52:10,914
your entire religion in general all of

1264
00:52:10,914 --> 00:52:13,506
that can be very is like the ground is

1265
00:52:13,506 --> 00:52:15,734
falling out beneath your feet or that the

1266
00:52:15,734 --> 00:52:17,686
floor is unstable your very foundation

1267
00:52:17,686 --> 00:52:20,634
feels shaken and it's hard to know which

1268
00:52:20,634 --> 00:52:22,938
way is north And that description of what

1269
00:52:22,938 --> 00:52:25,626
she talked about is because very real

1270
00:52:25,626 --> 00:52:26,614
experience because our identities are

1271
00:52:26,614 --> 00:52:29,226
wrapped up in our faith communities and

1272
00:52:29,226 --> 00:52:31,546
that's usually our families and our

1273
00:52:31,546 --> 00:52:34,378
friends And to question those things is

1274
00:52:34,378 --> 00:52:36,606
very difficult And I have a lot of

1275
00:52:36,606 --> 00:52:38,110
compassion on anybody walking through that

1276
00:52:38,110 --> 00:52:39,934
So please do reach out Once again we go a

1277
00:52:39,934 --> 00:52:41,738
little bit deeper with her in our

1278
00:52:41,738 --> 00:52:46,106
difference maker community So I'd love to

1279
00:52:46,106 --> 00:52:54,542
have you stop by ww.patreon That's P A T R

1280
00:52:54,542 --> 00:52:57,970
E O N of That's Patreon

1281
00:52:57,970 --> 00:53:00,022
Comaworldofdifference You can come in

1282
00:53:00,022 --> 00:53:02,118
there try some of our in depth more going

1283
00:53:02,118 --> 00:53:03,334
deeper with different guests and including

1284
00:53:03,334 --> 00:53:06,726
Sarah where we go a little bit deeper with

1285
00:53:06,726 --> 00:53:07,574
her around this conversation exclusively

1286
00:53:07,574 --> 00:53:08,694
for you difference makers And you can try

1287
00:53:08,694 --> 00:53:11,474
it out for free for a little bit see if

1288
00:53:11,474 --> 00:53:12,898
you like it and then subscribe on a

1289
00:53:12,898 --> 00:53:14,986
monthly or yearly basis But would love to

1290
00:53:14,986 --> 00:53:17,690
have you in there where we can dm you can

1291
00:53:17,690 --> 00:53:18,746
interact with other people in the

1292
00:53:18,746 --> 00:53:21,030
community and we can kind of sit at the

1293
00:53:21,030 --> 00:53:23,274
table and learn how to make a difference

1294
00:53:23,274 --> 00:53:24,906
together around this conversation and many

1295
00:53:24,906 --> 00:53:25,678
other conversations I think there's

1296
00:53:25,678 --> 00:53:28,286
something like 75 posts in there now So

1297
00:53:28,286 --> 00:53:30,366
when you join you get access to those And

1298
00:53:30,366 --> 00:53:32,270
yeah would love to have you show up there

1299
00:53:32,270 --> 00:53:34,558
because together. whole point of this

1300
00:53:34,558 --> 00:53:36,574
podcast is us making a difference together

1301
00:53:36,574 --> 00:53:37,966
I really appreciate each of your

1302
00:53:37,966 --> 00:53:39,760
differences each of you listening around

1303
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:44,206
the world I hope that yourself, take a

1304
00:53:44,206 --> 00:53:46,086
moment today to just love yourself care

1305
00:53:46,086 --> 00:53:46,994
for yourself and recognize your

1306
00:53:46,994 --> 00:53:47,894
differences are beautiful beautiful And

1307
00:53:47,894 --> 00:53:50,054
when you bring those to the table and you

1308
00:53:50,054 --> 00:53:52,306
bring your full self to the table these

1309
00:53:52,306 --> 00:53:54,402
world becomes brains better place when we

1310
00:53:54,402 --> 00:53:55,974
make decisions with these diversity of

1311
00:53:55,974 --> 00:53:57,718
brains around the table So glad Sarah

1312
00:53:57,718 --> 00:53:58,806
brought her perspective and her brain

1313
00:53:58,806 --> 00:54:02,054
around the table today And I do hope that