Norma Braga Venâncio's Courageous Journey of Advocacy, Justice and Exposing Abuse in Brazil in Faith-Based Spaces

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458 Welcome to the A World of Difference 2 00:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,606 podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this 3 00:00:06,606 --> 00:00:08,446 is. A podcast for those who are different 4 00:00:08,446 --> 00:00:11,914 and want to make a difference. This 5 00:00:11,914 --> 00:00:13,774 episode comes with a trigger warning. If 6 00:00:13,774 --> 00:00:16,506 you have experienced sexual assault or 7 00:00:16,506 --> 00:00:19,966 sexual abuse in any form, just be aware 8 00:00:19,966 --> 00:00:22,958 that we will be discussing the story of a 9 00:00:22,958 --> 00:00:25,366 particular abuse survivor where she shares 10 00:00:25,366 --> 00:00:28,726 her own childhood sexual abuse. so if 11 00:00:28,726 --> 00:00:29,942 that's something you've walked through 12 00:00:29,942 --> 00:00:32,086 feel free to take this in chunks or to 13 00:00:32,086 --> 00:00:35,526 pause the episode and ground yourself and 14 00:00:35,526 --> 00:00:37,986 just take care of yourself So listener 15 00:00:37,986 --> 00:00:40,694 Discretion Discretion is This podcast 16 00:00:40,694 --> 00:00:43,286 episode episode sponsored by Betterhelp 17 00:00:43,286 --> 00:00:45,786 Betterhelp. has been a a where I have been 18 00:00:45,786 --> 00:00:47,638 able to receive some therapy that's helped 19 00:00:47,638 --> 00:00:49,990 me walk through some emotional 20 00:00:49,990 --> 00:00:52,206 psychological and spiritual abuse in a 21 00:00:52,206 --> 00:00:55,918 toxic work environment And the the that I 22 00:00:55,918 --> 00:00:57,486 work with at Betterhelp has helped me with 23 00:00:57,486 --> 00:00:59,402 a lot of grounding techniques some somatic 24 00:00:59,402 --> 00:01:02,666 work self care principles that I've 25 00:01:02,666 --> 00:01:05,538 implemented into my life in order to work 26 00:01:05,538 --> 00:01:10,066 in in ways to help me work through the 27 00:01:10,066 --> 00:01:11,726 trauma.One of the aspects of trauma is 28 00:01:11,726 --> 00:01:14,370 that our bodies may go back in time even 29 00:01:14,370 --> 00:01:16,466 though our brains are aware that we're 30 00:01:16,466 --> 00:01:19,214 here And now part of our body is going 31 00:01:19,214 --> 00:01:21,718 back into the traumatic event And so a lot 32 00:01:21,718 --> 00:01:23,266 of the work I've done with my therapist at 33 00:01:23,266 --> 00:01:24,802 Betterhelp has been really helpful to 34 00:01:24,802 --> 00:01:27,958 ground me that I'm here it's now and I'm 35 00:01:27,958 --> 00:01:30,406 safe But those are things that if your 36 00:01:30,406 --> 00:01:32,246 Body and brain have walked through any of 37 00:01:32,246 --> 00:01:34,426 that you know what I mean And so some of 38 00:01:34,426 --> 00:01:35,818 those techniques can be can lot of hard 39 00:01:35,818 --> 00:01:37,386 work and professional help is something 40 00:01:37,386 --> 00:01:39,002 I've needed to walk through that And 41 00:01:39,002 --> 00:01:41,066 that's the case for many of us who've 42 00:01:41,066 --> 00:01:42,846 walked through trauma and abuse of any 43 00:01:42,846 --> 00:01:45,086 kind But if you just find yourself find a 44 00:01:45,086 --> 00:01:47,950 relationship a difficult with conflict any 45 00:01:47,950 --> 00:01:50,446 type of relationship Betterhelp is ready 46 00:01:50,446 --> 00:01:52,974 there to help you And I am happy to say 47 00:01:52,974 --> 00:01:55,554 that they sponsor this podcast for us here 48 00:01:55,554 --> 00:01:57,666 which makes a difference And difference. 49 00:01:57,666 --> 00:02:01,106 you go to betterhelp.com difference today 50 00:02:01,106 --> 00:02:03,682 you can get 10 off your first month which 51 00:02:03,682 --> 00:02:06,610 is our gift to you to help you get 52 00:02:06,610 --> 00:02:08,958 better.And although you're making although 53 00:02:08,958 --> 00:02:10,822 difference wherever you are taking care of 54 00:02:10,822 --> 00:02:13,654 yourself is important too And we want you 55 00:02:13,654 --> 00:02:14,966 to be making a difference making your own 56 00:02:14,966 --> 00:02:17,126 life And as you care for you then you can 57 00:02:17,126 --> 00:02:19,462 also care for others So please go to 58 00:02:19,462 --> 00:02:23,658 www.betterhelp.com difference to get 10 59 00:02:23,658 --> 00:02:25,994 off your first month Today we have an 60 00:02:25,994 --> 00:02:28,646 outstanding guest on today's show.I am 61 00:02:28,646 --> 00:02:31,278 thrilled to introduce to you if you've not 62 00:02:31,278 --> 00:02:33,546 yet heard of her and followed her work in 63 00:02:33,546 --> 00:02:35,150 writing and speaking Norma Christina Braga 64 00:02:35,150 --> 00:02:41,166 Venancio she Christina Braga friend that I 65 00:02:41,166 --> 00:02:43,054 a known for a while through Twitter a had 66 00:02:43,054 --> 00:02:45,646 the honor to meet with in person a couple 67 00:02:45,646 --> 00:02:47,470 times when I was in Rio recently in Brazil 68 00:02:47,470 --> 00:02:49,858 and share a couple of meals with her 69 00:02:49,858 --> 00:02:51,490 including in her home Norma is an 70 00:02:51,490 --> 00:02:54,082 incredible person very knowledgeable and 71 00:02:54,082 --> 00:02:58,054 great researcher and speaker and writer 72 00:02:58,054 --> 00:03:01,186 She's speaker theologian an image a and an 73 00:03:01,186 --> 00:03:03,510 author and she is currently writing a book 74 00:03:03,510 --> 00:03:05,362 on Christian women's self Image which 75 00:03:05,362 --> 00:03:07,866 includes the impact of abuse on personal 76 00:03:07,866 --> 00:03:10,934 theology self esteem and relationships She 77 00:03:10,934 --> 00:03:14,166 herself is also an abuse survivor and so 78 00:03:14,166 --> 00:03:18,090 she brings and experience into her writing 79 00:03:18,090 --> 00:03:20,634 her theology and her speaking.And I think 80 00:03:20,634 --> 00:03:23,294 that you along with me are going to find 81 00:03:23,294 --> 00:03:24,670 that she is full of incredible knowledge 82 00:03:24,670 --> 00:03:28,542 and wisdom and also a warmth that draws 83 00:03:28,542 --> 00:03:30,574 people in and gives many of us 84 00:03:30,574 --> 00:03:32,922 psychological safety just in her presence 85 00:03:32,922 --> 00:03:34,942 to share our own stories and to find our 86 00:03:34,942 --> 00:03:36,322 way through to healing through her 87 00:03:36,322 --> 00:03:39,314 research and her work and her writing So 88 00:03:39,314 --> 00:03:42,366 really thrilled to welcome today really 89 00:03:42,366 --> 00:03:45,770 the way from Copacabana in Rio my new 90 00:03:45,770 --> 00:03:55,042 friend Norma.Hi Norma It's so great to see 91 00:03:55,042 --> 00:03:57,542 your face again there in Rio after we got 92 00:03:57,542 --> 00:04:00,266 to meet in person just a few weeks ago I'm 93 00:04:00,266 --> 00:04:03,226 so a to get to talk to you about this to 94 00:04:03,226 --> 00:04:06,986 today Yeah welcome to the World of 95 00:04:06,986 --> 00:04:08,490 Difference podcast.Thank you I'm very glad 96 00:04:08,490 --> 00:04:14,714 too It's wonderful that we are not only 97 00:04:14,714 --> 00:04:17,534 Twitter friends but we got to meet in 98 00:04:17,534 --> 00:04:18,830 person and share a couple of meals 99 00:04:18,830 --> 00:04:21,470 together including share a in your home in 100 00:04:21,470 --> 00:04:24,538 Copacabana which is really special for me 101 00:04:24,538 --> 00:04:28,100 and my teenager And I think you and I both 102 00:04:28,100 --> 00:04:30,126 realized that we shared and very instant 103 00:04:30,126 --> 00:04:30,994 connection because of previous experience 104 00:04:30,994 --> 00:04:34,562 and because of the work we care about with 105 00:04:34,562 --> 00:04:36,722 justice in our faith environments So it's 106 00:04:36,722 --> 00:04:39,510 exciting.I'm excited to have this 107 00:04:39,510 --> 00:04:41,254 conversation with you today First off for 108 00:04:41,254 --> 00:04:44,774 our audience that doesn't yet know who you 109 00:04:44,774 --> 00:04:47,814 are I'm sure there are many listening 110 00:04:47,814 --> 00:04:49,734 maybe in Brazil or in the United States 111 00:04:49,734 --> 00:04:51,546 that have heard of you and your work but 112 00:04:51,546 --> 00:04:53,466 Would love for you just to start With 113 00:04:53,466 --> 00:04:55,002 sharing a bit about your background and 114 00:04:55,002 --> 00:04:58,410 also what led you to focus on this 115 00:04:58,410 --> 00:05:00,540 intersection of theology self image And 116 00:05:00,540 --> 00:05:04,246 abuse and the work that you do.Okay It's 117 00:05:04,246 --> 00:05:10,714 abuse, big story because I am a published 118 00:05:10,714 --> 00:05:18,674 author here in Brazil conferences in the 119 00:05:18,674 --> 00:05:21,970 Reformed environment and I have many 120 00:05:21,970 --> 00:05:27,654 pastors friends who share this theology 121 00:05:27,654 --> 00:05:30,070 the traditional theology reformed 122 00:05:30,070 --> 00:05:33,762 theology.But I wasn't aware of this 123 00:05:33,762 --> 00:05:40,650 problem of abuse.I think I was letting 124 00:05:40,650 --> 00:05:51,514 aside the fact that I am a woman I can say 125 00:05:51,514 --> 00:05:55,774 it now after all this The a that I am say 126 00:05:55,774 --> 00:06:00,014 woman was not important I wouldn't look 127 00:06:00,014 --> 00:06:02,666 that it And then in 2015 when Diane 128 00:06:02,666 --> 00:06:06,466 Langberg came here to Brazil to a 129 00:06:06,466 --> 00:06:11,522 conference a reformed conference and she 130 00:06:11,522 --> 00:06:15,750 began to speak about a about a women and 131 00:06:15,750 --> 00:06:18,630 trafficked women.And I was listening as if 132 00:06:18,630 --> 00:06:22,726 oh okay she's talking about abuse and 133 00:06:22,726 --> 00:06:26,150 making my notes And suddenly I had this 134 00:06:26,150 --> 00:06:31,002 insight oh I was abused I was abused And 135 00:06:31,002 --> 00:06:37,994 it was terrible because all my life it 136 00:06:37,994 --> 00:06:42,798 happened when I was 14 and the man was 40 137 00:06:42,798 --> 00:06:48,846 and he was a friend of my father So it was 138 00:06:48,846 --> 00:06:51,262 in and familiar environment.We were on a 139 00:06:51,262 --> 00:06:56,062 trip and I thought it was a Normal 140 00:06:56,062 --> 00:07:00,242 seduction an affair And I wasn't able to 141 00:07:00,242 --> 00:07:07,378 see myself was a victim And it came as a 142 00:07:07,378 --> 00:07:10,790 big surprise a bad surprise.It as very 143 00:07:10,790 --> 00:07:15,334 painful I cried came lot a her conference 144 00:07:15,334 --> 00:07:22,186 I could exchange some words with her I was 145 00:07:22,186 --> 00:07:25,642 very special And then it changed 146 00:07:25,642 --> 00:07:27,994 everything because I wasn't prepared to 147 00:07:27,994 --> 00:07:31,642 see myself as special. victim.I wanted to 148 00:07:31,642 --> 00:07:36,398 see myself as someone with 14 years old 149 00:07:36,398 --> 00:07:43,460 able to a her decisions And I saw it as 150 00:07:43,460 --> 00:07:48,850 like that And this reality of being make 151 00:07:48,850 --> 00:07:52,914 victim was very painful for me And I was 152 00:07:52,914 --> 00:07:55,666 depressed after that fact I couldn't 153 00:07:55,666 --> 00:07:59,510 handle this.And I got some help with a 154 00:07:59,510 --> 00:08:03,922 friend pastor who is fact. psychologist 155 00:08:03,922 --> 00:08:09,066 and he helped me to get out of the worst 156 00:08:09,066 --> 00:08:12,294 of my depression And then I continued with 157 00:08:12,294 --> 00:08:15,110 therapy till to I'm on therapy with 158 00:08:15,110 --> 00:08:19,430 another person who is a specialist in 159 00:08:19,430 --> 00:08:24,030 abuse and trauma And I read a lot of books 160 00:08:24,030 --> 00:08:27,706 to understand all this because what was my 161 00:08:27,706 --> 00:08:30,142 main concern when I went to conferences I 162 00:08:30,142 --> 00:08:35,250 was called to talk to women about biblical 163 00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:40,194 femininity And then I used to expose in 164 00:08:40,194 --> 00:08:46,550 one Peter three where he talks about the 165 00:08:46,550 --> 00:08:51,510 wife submission And as I wasn't aware of 166 00:08:51,510 --> 00:08:56,962 all those questions I used to speak about 167 00:08:56,962 --> 00:09:04,070 submission without thinking of abuse.And I 168 00:09:04,070 --> 00:09:09,770 think this silence was not good for some 169 00:09:09,770 --> 00:09:15,326 women who were listening to me and they 170 00:09:15,326 --> 00:09:21,662 thought oh I have to be more submissive So 171 00:09:21,662 --> 00:09:28,130 it was terrible to find out that my 172 00:09:28,130 --> 00:09:32,482 silence was hurting people And then when I 173 00:09:32,482 --> 00:09:36,658 became to study abuse I changed the way I 174 00:09:36,658 --> 00:09:41,010 spoke to women I was changing And then 175 00:09:41,010 --> 00:09:46,738 into 2020 in the middle of the pandemia I 176 00:09:46,738 --> 00:09:52,620 thought I have to study more this subject 177 00:09:52,620 --> 00:09:57,302 because I want to understand clearly where 178 00:09:57,302 --> 00:10:00,858 is the line when it is abused in the 179 00:10:00,858 --> 00:10:04,282 marriage.And we can't say to understand 180 00:10:04,282 --> 00:10:08,730 abused wife to be more submissive We can't 181 00:10:08,730 --> 00:10:14,562 do that because the abuser will grow will 182 00:10:14,562 --> 00:10:18,750 be empowered So I began to study abuse I 183 00:10:18,750 --> 00:10:22,626 said it was long I began to study about 184 00:10:22,626 --> 00:10:29,222 abuse and I was astonished to see abuse. 185 00:10:29,222 --> 00:10:33,222 lot of known very known American leaders 186 00:10:33,222 --> 00:10:38,482 and pastors and authors who are published 187 00:10:38,482 --> 00:10:44,266 here in Brazil a are very admired I was 188 00:10:44,266 --> 00:10:48,678 astonished to see some of them as abusers 189 00:10:48,678 --> 00:10:53,966 and some of them as neighbors.I was like 190 00:10:53,966 --> 00:10:59,086 what is this Why we don't have this 191 00:10:59,086 --> 00:11:01,630 information here in Brazil Because of 192 00:11:01,630 --> 00:11:06,658 course the most part of Brazilian doesn't 193 00:11:06,658 --> 00:11:09,074 speak English.And then I began to study a 194 00:11:09,074 --> 00:11:12,226 lot of information that it saw Internet 195 00:11:12,226 --> 00:11:20,754 part lot of things Here in Brazil we don't 196 00:11:20,754 --> 00:11:24,294 have this amount of information but 197 00:11:24,294 --> 00:11:27,126 information America it incredible We a 198 00:11:27,126 --> 00:11:29,962 find legal documents and in And I was 199 00:11:29,962 --> 00:11:34,140 studying and studying and researching 200 00:11:34,140 --> 00:11:40,226 researchinG And then I spoke about it with 201 00:11:40,226 --> 00:11:43,946 some pastors friends because I thought I 202 00:11:43,946 --> 00:11:49,082 don't know what to do with it.I am a 203 00:11:49,082 --> 00:11:54,594 public voice and I don't feel it's fair 204 00:11:54,594 --> 00:11:55,746 that our Brazilian public is consuming 205 00:11:55,746 --> 00:11:57,202 this literature and listening to these 206 00:11:57,202 --> 00:12:00,850 conferences that are translated here and 207 00:12:00,850 --> 00:12:05,622 they don't know this kind of pastoral 208 00:12:05,622 --> 00:12:10,182 malpractice And then my friends told me 209 00:12:10,182 --> 00:12:13,986 I'd better not touch this subject and lot 210 00:12:13,986 --> 00:12:20,154 in public because people are not prepared 211 00:12:20,154 --> 00:12:24,954 to listen because I have to be careful not 212 00:12:24,954 --> 00:12:28,458 touch see abuse everywhere And then there 213 00:12:28,458 --> 00:12:32,270 is a lot of gossip on the Internet And I 214 00:12:32,270 --> 00:12:35,082 was sad because they were questioning my 215 00:12:35,082 --> 00:12:37,854 ability to discern truth from lie.I was 216 00:12:37,854 --> 00:12:41,470 very trustable when I spoke against the 217 00:12:41,470 --> 00:12:46,622 problem of leftism and woke is and 218 00:12:46,622 --> 00:12:54,754 everything But now I wasn't trustable 219 00:12:54,754 --> 00:12:59,094 anymore because they saw me as going to 220 00:12:59,094 --> 00:13:07,302 the other side And I was accused even of 221 00:13:07,302 --> 00:13:11,782 being a feminist disguised as reformed It 222 00:13:11,782 --> 00:13:15,574 was saw friend that is not a friend 223 00:13:15,574 --> 00:13:22,954 anymore And in fact I lost a lot of 224 00:13:22,954 --> 00:13:30,542 friends because I decided to go public 225 00:13:30,542 --> 00:13:33,458 with all the information I had.And one 226 00:13:33,458 --> 00:13:36,354 friend Pastor Iago Martins told me he'd 227 00:13:36,354 --> 00:13:42,562 like to make a video with my research to 228 00:13:42,562 --> 00:13:45,750 take all the information from my research 229 00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:52,374 and make Iago video And now this video has 230 00:13:52,374 --> 00:13:58,426 300,000 views It's a lot And people are 231 00:13:58,426 --> 00:14:00,394 thanking him information all this But in 232 00:14:00,394 --> 00:14:08,246 the circles I used to be known and admired 233 00:14:08,246 --> 00:14:12,960 I feel now that I lost all of it and some 234 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:17,790 friends too.It's been tough Of course it's 235 00:14:17,790 --> 00:14:23,620 to That's the hardest part I hear very 236 00:14:23,620 --> 00:14:26,882 frequently from people is the loss of 237 00:14:26,882 --> 00:14:30,914 community And it is the unfortunate price 238 00:14:30,914 --> 00:14:32,642 that these particular communities ask us 239 00:14:32,642 --> 00:14:37,254 to pay There are some unwritten rules that 240 00:14:37,254 --> 00:14:41,958 you can be a part of is group as long as 241 00:14:41,958 --> 00:14:46,054 your theology and the words that you say 242 00:14:46,054 --> 00:14:48,338 and even some of those gray areas that you 243 00:14:48,338 --> 00:14:51,786 have to be very black and white the ways 244 00:14:51,786 --> 00:14:55,338 that the are.If you suddenly go into any 245 00:14:55,338 --> 00:14:58,666 nuance it feels like you get shunned And 246 00:14:58,666 --> 00:15:00,394 if you speak publicly especially so And 247 00:15:00,394 --> 00:15:02,014 people that you thought were good friends 248 00:15:02,014 --> 00:15:05,214 that you'd walked through life with and 249 00:15:05,214 --> 00:15:06,670 shared the same values and spirituality 250 00:15:06,670 --> 00:15:10,814 and prayed with which is a very deep 251 00:15:10,814 --> 00:15:12,458 connection spoken with in conferences on 252 00:15:12,458 --> 00:15:13,938 stages suddenly being absolutely gone from 253 00:15:13,938 --> 00:15:17,026 your life while at the same time you're 254 00:15:17,026 --> 00:15:18,926 walking through the reality that you've 255 00:15:18,926 --> 00:15:23,954 been abused and the on of all that and you 256 00:15:23,954 --> 00:15:25,794 needed your community more than ever I 257 00:15:25,794 --> 00:15:28,646 just want to help you Give us a picture of 258 00:15:28,646 --> 00:15:30,310 how does abuse in your experience affect a 259 00:15:30,310 --> 00:15:32,806 woman's perception of herself and her 260 00:15:32,806 --> 00:15:34,566 relationship with her faith.Exactly When I 261 00:15:34,566 --> 00:15:37,398 was better from depression I was in love 262 00:15:37,398 --> 00:15:41,738 with this area of a consultant and I began 263 00:15:41,738 --> 00:15:48,026 to study I studied to be an image 264 00:15:48,026 --> 00:15:52,126 consultant and I decided to join both 265 00:15:52,126 --> 00:15:56,442 theology and beauty So I have this 266 00:15:56,442 --> 00:16:00,638 theology theology and beauty where I 267 00:16:00,638 --> 00:16:04,946 provide the part of image consultant and 268 00:16:04,946 --> 00:16:09,362 also the theological aspects of it because 269 00:16:09,362 --> 00:16:14,530 my clients and the people who come to me 270 00:16:14,530 --> 00:16:21,890 need to listen to the beauty of being 271 00:16:21,890 --> 00:16:25,942 consultant woman because I feel we are 272 00:16:25,942 --> 00:16:30,394 getting all the time wrong messages about 273 00:16:30,394 --> 00:16:37,882 being a woman Like if you are born a woman 274 00:16:37,882 --> 00:16:42,640 so the Bible has only for you things that 275 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,214 you can't do in the church.So there are 276 00:16:47,214 --> 00:16:54,942 those terrible lists of things you can a 277 00:16:54,942 --> 00:17:00,034 you can't do For example only the book of 278 00:17:00,034 --> 00:17:02,606 this book Recovering Biblical Manhood and 279 00:17:02,606 --> 00:17:08,358 Woman Oh gosh I didn't read all of it but 280 00:17:08,358 --> 00:17:14,806 my and did And he has example, lot to say 281 00:17:14,806 --> 00:17:19,930 about it I bet he does.Yeah He thought the 282 00:17:19,930 --> 00:17:24,220 most part was terrible theology And how 283 00:17:24,220 --> 00:17:28,954 can we after so many years of a still have 284 00:17:28,954 --> 00:17:34,134 say terrible theology of women So I am 285 00:17:34,134 --> 00:17:40,030 working I think my main work is to develop 286 00:17:40,030 --> 00:17:42,302 theology of image concerning women because 287 00:17:42,302 --> 00:17:45,950 abuse is Christianity, trauma that a 288 00:17:45,950 --> 00:17:50,482 directly into the image our image So I saw 289 00:17:50,482 --> 00:17:57,110 that my work was big and a little bit 290 00:17:57,110 --> 00:18:04,614 without precedent.I don't have abuse lot 291 00:18:04,614 --> 00:18:10,966 of things ready about image because it 292 00:18:10,966 --> 00:18:16,154 seems that image. in a platonic thought is 293 00:18:16,154 --> 00:18:22,538 less important than the a And we are being 294 00:18:22,538 --> 00:18:26,478 a little platonic when we don't consider 295 00:18:26,478 --> 00:18:29,566 the image something important enough to 296 00:18:29,566 --> 00:18:35,218 deserve image theology It's true And I 297 00:18:35,218 --> 00:18:41,682 think that you and I discussed this are 298 00:18:41,682 --> 00:18:47,582 little bit when I was with you there in 299 00:18:47,582 --> 00:18:53,220 you know at least in the United States we 300 00:18:53,220 --> 00:18:55,606 have a history with our evangelical 301 00:18:55,606 --> 00:18:56,966 Christianity that some of the roots come 302 00:18:56,966 --> 00:19:00,106 from these Puritans And a lot of that 303 00:19:00,106 --> 00:19:00,970 puritanical theology really didn't allow 304 00:19:00,970 --> 00:19:02,794 for States, lot of a history be 305 00:19:02,794 --> 00:19:05,418 expressed.In fact Christianity was a lot 306 00:19:05,418 --> 00:19:08,666 of rejection in a lot of ways of beauty 307 00:19:08,666 --> 00:19:13,198 like you're saying very platonic The image 308 00:19:13,198 --> 00:19:15,774 was not as important Even now I would say 309 00:19:15,774 --> 00:19:18,718 even in some of my missionary circles it 310 00:19:18,718 --> 00:19:21,306 seemed as though some women almost would 311 00:19:21,306 --> 00:19:23,714 be like an evangelical nun almost It was 312 00:19:23,714 --> 00:19:26,114 like if you just didn't wear makeup and 313 00:19:26,114 --> 00:19:30,014 you didn't have a very flattering haircut 314 00:19:30,014 --> 00:19:33,346 and if your clothes were really plain then 315 00:19:33,346 --> 00:19:36,626 it an you were more holy And I know that 316 00:19:36,626 --> 00:19:39,240 some of that theology has come even into a 317 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,874 how that has affected your circles 318 00:19:41,874 --> 00:19:43,298 Yeah.Yes In the Presbyterian world we 319 00:19:43,298 --> 00:19:45,686 don't have rules for women only the 320 00:19:45,686 --> 00:19:47,714 modesty rules And I see that But I see 321 00:19:47,714 --> 00:19:50,070 that inside the Presbyterian world there 322 00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:58,294 is something that we call a neopuritanism 323 00:19:58,294 --> 00:20:04,222 They don't like this word but it expresses 324 00:20:04,222 --> 00:20:14,834 how this mood is being taken to our days 325 00:20:14,834 --> 00:20:20,082 among women.So we began to see here a very 326 00:20:20,082 --> 00:20:25,894 strong emphasis on submission modesty and 327 00:20:25,894 --> 00:20:30,600 even some ideal of a woman A Christian 328 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:38,922 woman must talk.She can't speak loudly She 329 00:20:38,922 --> 00:20:44,140 can't be strong in a sense of strong words 330 00:20:44,140 --> 00:20:52,910 and strong presence So emphasis lot of 331 00:20:52,910 --> 00:20:58,682 things that began to appear on a media by 332 00:20:58,682 --> 00:21:06,366 young women young very young women twenty 333 00:21:06,366 --> 00:21:10,578 s and twenty something who want to be 334 00:21:10,578 --> 00:21:15,686 Christian women but they are taking these 335 00:21:15,686 --> 00:21:20,182 steps that are not biblical but they are 336 00:21:20,182 --> 00:21:25,350 cultural And from where they take all this 337 00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:30,006 from authors American s that are coming 338 00:21:30,006 --> 00:21:32,666 Here with this theology it's 339 00:21:32,666 --> 00:21:35,898 heartbreaking.It's a bit of taking 340 00:21:35,898 --> 00:21:38,774 neocolonialist aspect of Christianity that 341 00:21:38,774 --> 00:21:42,254 we would export that kind of thing to 342 00:21:42,254 --> 00:21:47,214 South America and know some cultural 343 00:21:47,214 --> 00:21:51,242 aspects that are not biblical and then add 344 00:21:51,242 --> 00:21:55,998 those to the message of the gospel a 345 00:21:55,998 --> 00:21:59,582 export it to somewhere like Brazil which 346 00:21:59,582 --> 00:22:01,982 has beautiful women and it's so much 347 00:22:01,982 --> 00:22:07,010 beauty and art and music and that we would 348 00:22:07,010 --> 00:22:09,686 squash it and make it small especially for 349 00:22:09,686 --> 00:22:11,254 women is incredibly heartbreaking So I 350 00:22:11,254 --> 00:22:14,534 know you write quite a bit about this 351 00:22:14,534 --> 00:22:17,894 You're writing a book about the impact of 352 00:22:17,894 --> 00:22:20,586 abuse You have theology self esteem all of 353 00:22:20,586 --> 00:22:24,694 these Could you sort of elaborate on some 354 00:22:24,694 --> 00:22:26,346 of your key insights or themes that a 355 00:22:26,346 --> 00:22:29,066 emerging for you as you're writing and 356 00:22:29,066 --> 00:22:32,566 researching Yes It all began when I was 357 00:22:32,566 --> 00:22:34,638 doing my work for a master's in theology 358 00:22:34,638 --> 00:22:36,686 here in Brazil in 2015 It began insights 359 00:22:36,686 --> 00:22:38,666 2015 and I was interested in the subject 360 00:22:38,666 --> 00:22:45,042 of idolatry and I wanted to see idolatry 361 00:22:45,042 --> 00:22:48,980 as something relational because in our 362 00:22:48,980 --> 00:22:53,586 world our Christian world we consider 363 00:22:53,586 --> 00:23:00,680 pride the in problem of men and women 364 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:07,786 Pride is the problem And I saw that not 365 00:23:07,786 --> 00:23:12,940 only pride but a bad self image can make 366 00:23:12,940 --> 00:23:20,006 you be like the other side of pride who is 367 00:23:20,006 --> 00:23:23,806 a kind of self contempt and demeaning of 368 00:23:23,806 --> 00:23:25,886 yourself.And this was very dangerous 369 00:23:25,886 --> 00:23:29,978 because it's an open window to a And then 370 00:23:29,978 --> 00:23:35,230 I began to read about self esteem and I 371 00:23:35,230 --> 00:23:38,398 read this book on the subject because 372 00:23:38,398 --> 00:23:44,462 there aren't almost any books on this 373 00:23:44,462 --> 00:23:50,434 subject of self esteem I read Jay Adams 374 00:23:50,434 --> 00:23:54,438 and I saw a lot of problems there because 375 00:23:54,438 --> 00:24:00,154 he only recognized the problem of pride He 376 00:24:00,154 --> 00:24:04,300 doesn't recognize this problem.And then I 377 00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:07,562 was able to make a big argumentation 378 00:24:07,562 --> 00:24:11,374 against his thought and I was more 379 00:24:11,374 --> 00:24:14,622 conscious of the problem And in fact when 380 00:24:14,622 --> 00:24:20,062 women come to me and they say oh I thought 381 00:24:20,062 --> 00:24:30,260 it's almost the same thing they come and 382 00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:37,814 they a I didn't think my image was 383 00:24:37,814 --> 00:24:42,326 important to God I didn't think my beauty 384 00:24:42,326 --> 00:24:46,902 was important to God And why Because there 385 00:24:46,902 --> 00:24:53,066 is some participation of the culture the 386 00:24:53,066 --> 00:24:55,674 Reformed culture.It's not from nowhere And 387 00:24:55,674 --> 00:25:01,854 then I saw that the God of beauty the to 388 00:25:01,854 --> 00:25:04,894 of beauty loves beauty and he loves women 389 00:25:04,894 --> 00:25:11,258 because he's the creator of women too And 390 00:25:11,258 --> 00:25:16,660 there is all this side of beauty in the 391 00:25:16,660 --> 00:25:23,554 sense of appearance but also in the sense 392 00:25:23,554 --> 00:25:26,674 of connection good relationships and care 393 00:25:26,674 --> 00:25:30,006 for each other that I see that it's being 394 00:25:30,006 --> 00:25:33,542 left aside by a theology that is very 395 00:25:33,542 --> 00:25:38,474 cognitive very Normative So true It's very 396 00:25:38,474 --> 00:25:43,450 left brain and it leaves off half of our 397 00:25:43,450 --> 00:25:47,562 brain.We need the right brain included 398 00:25:47,562 --> 00:25:51,390 because God created that too Right And 399 00:25:51,390 --> 00:25:55,214 especially for anyone who's a through 400 00:25:55,214 --> 00:26:04,506 abuse and trauma I know this firsthand how 401 00:26:04,506 --> 00:26:06,834 important engaging my right brain in my 402 00:26:06,834 --> 00:26:08,706 healing has been actually way much more 403 00:26:08,706 --> 00:26:11,410 than the left brain even though I'm more 404 00:26:11,410 --> 00:26:14,306 of a left brain person including art and 405 00:26:14,306 --> 00:26:17,838 music and dance and expression has been 406 00:26:17,838 --> 00:26:20,286 incredibly impactful in my healing and 407 00:26:20,286 --> 00:26:22,694 surprisingly so And healing lot of that 408 00:26:22,694 --> 00:26:24,486 has included beauty even the beauty of the 409 00:26:24,486 --> 00:26:25,634 outdoors and experiencing that in my 410 00:26:25,634 --> 00:26:30,582 body.So as a theologian and an image 411 00:26:30,582 --> 00:26:35,226 consultant how do you integrate these two 412 00:26:35,226 --> 00:26:38,666 fields when you talk with survivors of a 413 00:26:38,666 --> 00:26:40,426 and help them reimagine and rebuild their 414 00:26:40,426 --> 00:26:42,574 self image Sometimes I see that something 415 00:26:42,574 --> 00:26:45,678 is not right when I talk with people who 416 00:26:45,678 --> 00:26:48,474 come to image consultation and I try to be 417 00:26:48,474 --> 00:26:51,226 very careful and I apply this test 418 00:26:51,226 --> 00:26:53,746 Childhood I forgot them name This ten 419 00:26:53,746 --> 00:27:01,938 question test about the childhood Is it 420 00:27:01,938 --> 00:27:05,910 the adverse childhood experiences the ace 421 00:27:05,910 --> 00:27:14,214 maybe yeah.And if the client is open to it 422 00:27:14,214 --> 00:27:19,260 I apply this and I show her the beauty of 423 00:27:19,260 --> 00:27:26,170 God I show her the beauty of relationships 424 00:27:26,170 --> 00:27:32,990 and then I say it would be very good if 425 00:27:32,990 --> 00:27:42,802 you go to therapy and everything but in a 426 00:27:42,802 --> 00:27:51,970 very careful way And when she wants to 427 00:27:51,970 --> 00:27:56,374 look at it more theologically I can do it 428 00:27:56,374 --> 00:28:03,414 too When we go to the Bible to see how 429 00:28:03,414 --> 00:28:05,206 some persons depicted there were for 430 00:28:05,206 --> 00:28:08,330 example Paul When they were trying to 431 00:28:08,330 --> 00:28:12,314 belittle Paul those who wanted to keep 432 00:28:12,314 --> 00:28:16,154 some Jewish laws they were trying to 433 00:28:16,154 --> 00:28:19,546 belittle Paul And he spoke very firmly.He 434 00:28:19,546 --> 00:28:25,210 didn't let to be belittled So I teach them 435 00:28:25,210 --> 00:28:32,000 that if you are sure of who you are before 436 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:39,700 God you are not only wanted sinner And 437 00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:44,450 being a sinner is not our ultimate reality 438 00:28:44,450 --> 00:28:51,206 We are redeemed by Christ You are a 439 00:28:51,206 --> 00:28:54,230 daughter of God.It changes everything 440 00:28:54,230 --> 00:28:59,514 Sometimes I think that our reformed world 441 00:28:59,514 --> 00:29:03,514 speak more about sin than about redemption 442 00:29:03,514 --> 00:29:08,710 And it's ridiculous It is It's like we a 443 00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:13,854 always in those steps behind the encounter 444 00:29:13,854 --> 00:29:19,198 with God.And we can't be like this We can 445 00:29:19,198 --> 00:29:23,766 explore more What does it mean to be a 446 00:29:23,766 --> 00:29:30,190 daughter of God It's fantastic And I think 447 00:29:30,190 --> 00:29:34,500 it's left aside when all you do is preach 448 00:29:34,500 --> 00:29:44,630 about sin.Sin yeah And of all places in 449 00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:47,720 Brazil where you have the Christ the 450 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,874 Redeemer statue right of his outstretched 451 00:29:50,874 --> 00:29:54,774 arms It's one of the wonders of the world 452 00:29:54,774 --> 00:29:59,418 that's right there in Rio And it's know 453 00:29:59,418 --> 00:30:01,818 reminder that God's love Is always 454 00:30:01,818 --> 00:30:05,690 available for us that Christ.Did come to 455 00:30:05,690 --> 00:30:08,382 redeem us and his outstretched arms for 456 00:30:08,382 --> 00:30:11,306 the whole world The whole world knows 457 00:30:11,306 --> 00:30:13,906 about this statue and it's right there in 458 00:30:13,906 --> 00:30:15,906 Brazil And then still this theology has 459 00:30:15,906 --> 00:30:20,210 really become so twisted in people's minds 460 00:30:20,210 --> 00:30:22,530 and it's heartbreaking to know that so 461 00:30:22,530 --> 00:30:25,906 many of the origins are here in the United 462 00:30:25,906 --> 00:30:27,938 States As you're speaking and you're on 463 00:30:27,938 --> 00:30:29,366 Twitter you're on YouTube videos and 464 00:30:29,366 --> 00:30:31,750 you're trying to get the word out for 465 00:30:31,750 --> 00:30:35,314 people to understand because you do speak 466 00:30:35,314 --> 00:30:37,654 English and you have researched and you 467 00:30:37,654 --> 00:30:39,274 know there are some pastors and authors 468 00:30:39,274 --> 00:30:41,494 with abusive backgrounds that are being 469 00:30:41,494 --> 00:30:45,974 platformed speaking Brazil What do you 470 00:30:45,974 --> 00:30:48,906 want people in Brazil to know that might 471 00:30:48,906 --> 00:30:50,830 speak English that are listening to this 472 00:30:50,830 --> 00:30:53,994 And what do you want people in the United 473 00:30:53,994 --> 00:30:55,998 States to know about what you're 474 00:30:55,998 --> 00:30:59,786 experiencing in Brazil because of these 475 00:30:59,786 --> 00:31:03,086 Authors that are platformed It's a tough 476 00:31:03,086 --> 00:31:04,606 question.I want to say that when the 477 00:31:04,606 --> 00:31:06,366 Church sees as a problem only the leftist 478 00:31:06,366 --> 00:31:07,714 concerns and everything when we are in 479 00:31:07,714 --> 00:31:09,458 this place where we are conservative above 480 00:31:09,458 --> 00:31:11,586 all sometimes we forgot that the power we 481 00:31:11,586 --> 00:31:22,098 have to be aware of is not only the power 482 00:31:22,098 --> 00:31:31,010 of the civil government but also the 483 00:31:31,010 --> 00:31:38,040 religious power.You can't a about the 484 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:46,586 dangers of governed power without seeing 485 00:31:46,586 --> 00:31:50,102 the dangers of religious power And it was 486 00:31:50,102 --> 00:31:55,760 so obvious But myself I didn't see it 487 00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:01,262 Before I learned that I was abused and I 488 00:32:01,262 --> 00:32:05,646 had to remake all my trajectory of thought 489 00:32:05,646 --> 00:32:14,510 and I wish they would listen It was so 490 00:32:14,510 --> 00:32:17,662 heartbreaking that I wasn't listened by my 491 00:32:17,662 --> 00:32:22,342 friends who trusted me.And now they don't 492 00:32:22,342 --> 00:32:28,502 anymore because for them I going to the 493 00:32:28,502 --> 00:32:33,706 other side So I would say that we have to 494 00:32:33,706 --> 00:32:38,860 to to this thing being more conservative 495 00:32:38,860 --> 00:32:42,394 than Christians and divide the Christians 496 00:32:42,394 --> 00:32:48,862 like this And we have to be more biblical 497 00:32:48,862 --> 00:32:51,262 because the Bible speaks about oppression 498 00:32:51,262 --> 00:32:55,120 and oppression is anymore thing.How we 499 00:32:55,120 --> 00:33:00,194 ended in this situation where when I say 500 00:33:00,194 --> 00:33:03,540 this word oppression everybody is oh she's 501 00:33:03,540 --> 00:33:11,254 a leftist she's a left How we ended there 502 00:33:11,254 --> 00:33:13,814 And I think politics and American 503 00:33:13,814 --> 00:33:16,150 conservatism is coming strongly on Brazil 504 00:33:16,150 --> 00:33:21,214 and we are repeating the same mistakes and 505 00:33:21,214 --> 00:33:28,938 we can't do that So I would say that we 506 00:33:28,938 --> 00:33:33,510 can't repeat the same mistakes We have to 507 00:33:33,510 --> 00:33:37,182 learn from the a stories the a results of 508 00:33:37,182 --> 00:33:40,346 this problem this specific problem think 509 00:33:40,346 --> 00:33:45,878 the United States.There are so many 510 00:33:45,878 --> 00:33:49,822 testimonies about those bad results We 511 00:33:49,822 --> 00:33:53,490 have to learn them because we can't repeat 512 00:33:53,490 --> 00:33:57,154 them And I know in Brazil the situation is 513 00:33:57,154 --> 00:34:00,680 very complicated because we have this kind 514 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,894 of leftism who is authoritarian too We 515 00:34:05,894 --> 00:34:09,302 have this problem, here in Latin America 516 00:34:09,302 --> 00:34:13,370 You know all the situation in Venezuela 517 00:34:13,370 --> 00:34:17,146 and here in Brazil we have so many 518 00:34:17,146 --> 00:34:21,354 admirers of Chavez and Maduro.We have this 519 00:34:21,354 --> 00:34:24,174 problem but we can't buy the other 520 00:34:24,174 --> 00:34:26,814 problem.Those are.I forgot the name but 521 00:34:26,814 --> 00:34:31,374 okay we can't fight this problem with the 522 00:34:31,374 --> 00:34:35,934 flesh We have to be spiritual and see 523 00:34:35,934 --> 00:34:38,302 things spiritually Absolutely I just love 524 00:34:38,302 --> 00:34:39,954 hearing your perspective because you're 525 00:34:39,954 --> 00:34:43,746 not only so good at researching you're 526 00:34:43,746 --> 00:34:46,994 academically I mean you speak many 527 00:34:46,994 --> 00:34:49,640 languages.You we can't French teacher for 528 00:34:49,640 --> 00:35:00,294 a long time and taught at that level But 529 00:35:00,294 --> 00:35:04,314 your English is very good and your ability 530 00:35:04,314 --> 00:35:07,162 to research and understand deep 531 00:35:07,162 --> 00:35:13,018 theological concepts is incredibly helpful 532 00:35:13,018 --> 00:35:15,670 But also just your experience as because 533 00:35:15,670 --> 00:35:16,954 Brazilian walking through the reform 534 00:35:16,954 --> 00:35:22,042 circles and now seeing what you see now as 535 00:35:22,042 --> 00:35:23,486 languages. survivor it's so impactful Your 536 00:35:23,486 --> 00:35:24,606 perspective is very valuable And it's 537 00:35:24,606 --> 00:35:27,074 really heartbreaking to me that you have 538 00:35:27,074 --> 00:35:28,498 entire communities that don't want to 539 00:35:28,498 --> 00:35:32,014 listen to you because you talk about 540 00:35:32,014 --> 00:35:33,426 things like oppression.I agree I'm 541 00:35:33,426 --> 00:35:36,578 flabbergasted that this is the reality 542 00:35:36,578 --> 00:35:39,758 There's a very famous and commonly sung 543 00:35:39,758 --> 00:35:42,390 Christmas Carol that's my personal a in 544 00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:45,846 English oh holy Night And my favorite line 545 00:35:45,846 --> 00:35:48,678 is in his name all oppression will cease 546 00:35:48,678 --> 00:35:51,386 And every year when I sing it increasingly 547 00:35:51,386 --> 00:35:55,142 over the last few years I would say 548 00:35:55,142 --> 00:35:58,714 Especially since 2016 that line feels so 549 00:35:58,714 --> 00:36:03,334 rare to be sung in a church evangelical 550 00:36:03,334 --> 00:36:05,578 church environment.I agree with you How 551 00:36:05,578 --> 00:36:08,926 did oppression become a word that it was 552 00:36:08,926 --> 00:36:11,022 not considered a Christian word to say 553 00:36:11,022 --> 00:36:14,494 when throughout the Bible it Is year theme 554 00:36:14,494 --> 00:36:17,162 of God's heart for the oppressed You have 555 00:36:17,162 --> 00:36:20,722 the Good Samaritan you have Jesus The 556 00:36:20,722 --> 00:36:23,554 theme of Caring for widows and orphans is 557 00:36:23,554 --> 00:36:26,530 throughout the Scriptures people who are I 558 00:36:26,530 --> 00:36:29,266 agree It's not just government They're not 559 00:36:29,266 --> 00:36:31,766 just talking know the Roman government in 560 00:36:31,766 --> 00:36:34,162 the New Testament They're talking about 561 00:36:34,162 --> 00:36:36,614 the Pharisees the Sadducees and modern day 562 00:36:36,614 --> 00:36:38,886 that know the Evangelical Church in the 563 00:36:38,886 --> 00:36:41,858 United States and in Brazil It might look 564 00:36:41,858 --> 00:36:43,622 something like some of the reform 565 00:36:43,622 --> 00:36:47,210 circles.I don't know We want to say it's 566 00:36:47,210 --> 00:36:50,278 only like something big like the Catholic 567 00:36:50,278 --> 00:36:52,986 Church but it's not exclusive to them So 568 00:36:52,986 --> 00:36:55,494 my question for you is how can knowing 569 00:36:55,494 --> 00:36:58,910 these oppressive elements in our faith 570 00:36:58,910 --> 00:37:01,374 based spaces and starting to recognize the 571 00:37:01,374 --> 00:37:03,214 if someone is in and they're starting to 572 00:37:03,214 --> 00:37:05,582 get a little bit of an insight just now 573 00:37:05,582 --> 00:37:07,146 hearing this like you did when Diane 574 00:37:07,146 --> 00:37:08,846 Lamberg spoke how can individuals and 575 00:37:08,846 --> 00:37:10,514 communities really better support these 576 00:37:10,514 --> 00:37:13,682 survivors of abuse in their journey as 577 00:37:13,682 --> 00:37:16,238 they heal and work towards self 578 00:37:16,238 --> 00:37:19,762 empowerment Yeah The first thing is learn 579 00:37:19,762 --> 00:37:22,706 from them learn from the stories learn 580 00:37:22,706 --> 00:37:24,646 what is abuse Because here in a we have 581 00:37:24,646 --> 00:37:26,790 some good publications about the subject 582 00:37:26,790 --> 00:37:28,514 but sometimes pastors are so overwhelmed 583 00:37:28,514 --> 00:37:31,434 with all the preaching and everything and 584 00:37:31,434 --> 00:37:34,774 they left it aside And then when in like 585 00:37:34,774 --> 00:37:37,322 this happened in the church they don't 586 00:37:37,322 --> 00:37:44,846 know how to respond and it's terrible 587 00:37:44,846 --> 00:37:50,574 because they don't know what to do And 588 00:37:50,574 --> 00:37:55,354 it's very difficult because the stories 589 00:37:55,354 --> 00:37:59,858 now that I am talking about it on social 590 00:37:59,858 --> 00:38:05,220 media and making conferences about it 591 00:38:05,220 --> 00:38:09,766 people are coming and been saying Norma I 592 00:38:09,766 --> 00:38:14,278 need your help because I am helping an 593 00:38:14,278 --> 00:38:18,200 abusive wife in the church, and I don't 594 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:24,554 know what to do.And then I began to listen 595 00:38:24,554 --> 00:38:29,402 And it's always the same thing that 596 00:38:29,402 --> 00:38:33,750 happens It's like if the abusers had am 597 00:38:33,750 --> 00:38:37,520 manual and they do everything it's almost 598 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:42,046 the same And then the religious leaders 599 00:38:42,046 --> 00:38:45,342 respond also the same and they cannot do 600 00:38:45,342 --> 00:38:49,826 it They cannot call the Wife and the 601 00:38:49,826 --> 00:38:52,274 husband together to speak to them.They 602 00:38:52,274 --> 00:38:54,674 have to listen to them separately They 603 00:38:54,674 --> 00:38:58,322 have to be concerned when the husband 604 00:38:58,322 --> 00:39:01,014 begins to escalate like throwing things 605 00:39:01,014 --> 00:39:07,400 and they really don't know how to deal 606 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:13,958 with it's because the trust the good image 607 00:39:13,958 --> 00:39:18,470 the abuser has in the community So it's 608 00:39:18,470 --> 00:39:22,378 very tough And I would say that read books 609 00:39:22,378 --> 00:39:25,934 about abuse listen to stories and let 610 00:39:25,934 --> 00:39:28,250 yourself be educated because it's very 611 00:39:28,250 --> 00:39:31,854 important Abuse is something that you have 612 00:39:31,854 --> 00:39:38,142 to be educated.It's not simple to 613 00:39:38,142 --> 00:39:42,130 understand It's like someone taken the 614 00:39:42,130 --> 00:39:47,042 place of God in your head and in your 615 00:39:47,042 --> 00:39:51,014 heart It's someone that wants to be 616 00:39:51,014 --> 00:39:57,240 idolized in your head in your heart and to 617 00:39:57,240 --> 00:40:03,910 control everything that you are So it's a 618 00:40:03,910 --> 00:40:10,938 very demonic thing And we have to be aware 619 00:40:10,938 --> 00:40:14,094 because sometimes and most of the times 620 00:40:14,094 --> 00:40:17,230 the abuser will not repent.It's very 621 00:40:17,230 --> 00:40:24,222 difficult It's a miracle And we have to be 622 00:40:24,222 --> 00:40:26,900 aware and protect the wife above the 623 00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:33,250 marriage Don't try to save the marriage 624 00:40:33,250 --> 00:40:36,354 when you see the wife is being destroyed 625 00:40:36,354 --> 00:40:41,174 save the wife first That's what I'm saying 626 00:40:41,174 --> 00:40:45,350 to people who come and ask for help.Such 627 00:40:45,350 --> 00:40:52,474 good advice And it brings us back to the 628 00:40:52,474 --> 00:40:58,138 beginning which is that God loves all 629 00:40:58,138 --> 00:41:01,034 human beings women included And beauty 630 00:41:01,034 --> 00:41:06,474 means the ability to flourish as well And 631 00:41:06,474 --> 00:41:10,382 so when marriage. human being is being 632 00:41:10,382 --> 00:41:13,818 crushed in an oppressive marriage or 633 00:41:13,818 --> 00:41:18,974 abused by a clergy member the it's adult 634 00:41:18,974 --> 00:41:21,954 clergy sexual abuse or childhood sexual 635 00:41:21,954 --> 00:41:24,180 abuse or spiritual emotional psychological 636 00:41:24,180 --> 00:41:26,594 financial physical abuse there's many 637 00:41:26,594 --> 00:41:28,734 types of us And so all of these elements 638 00:41:28,734 --> 00:41:32,038 certainly apply that you're talking about 639 00:41:32,038 --> 00:41:37,010 today.I just want to say thank you Norma 640 00:41:37,010 --> 00:41:39,814 for this conversation for the work a you 641 00:41:39,814 --> 00:41:42,630 do for continuing to speak at great 642 00:41:42,630 --> 00:41:46,330 personal risk of losing community and 643 00:41:46,330 --> 00:41:50,902 friends And that is a huge price you've 644 00:41:50,902 --> 00:41:56,486 had to pay that I wish you had never had 645 00:41:56,486 --> 00:41:59,086 to pay But I'm so grateful that you have 646 00:41:59,086 --> 00:42:02,110 and for your courage to speak out And 647 00:42:02,110 --> 00:42:03,914 you're using your brain and your heart and 648 00:42:03,914 --> 00:42:06,062 you're such a warm person And so I really 649 00:42:06,062 --> 00:42:08,590 hope that people listening today at are 650 00:42:08,590 --> 00:42:11,166 sort of beginning to consider these things 651 00:42:11,166 --> 00:42:12,626 might reach out.To you to learn more from 652 00:42:12,626 --> 00:42:14,306 you How can people find you And more of 653 00:42:14,306 --> 00:42:16,226 your writing and speaking.On Twitter I 654 00:42:16,226 --> 00:42:18,242 have to see because I changed my name 1 655 00:42:18,242 --> 00:42:22,258 second Yes On Twitter X I am Norma Braga V 656 00:42:22,258 --> 00:42:25,574 E N vencio It's my last name.And on ID 657 00:42:25,574 --> 00:42:28,566 Instagram I am Norma Braga Official It's 658 00:42:28,566 --> 00:42:30,326 official One F only in Portuguese Yes.And 659 00:42:30,326 --> 00:42:32,426 let me tell you something I already feel a 660 00:42:32,426 --> 00:42:34,026 little bit that the community of survivors 661 00:42:34,026 --> 00:42:42,266 on X is a little bit my community because 662 00:42:42,266 --> 00:42:53,390 I learned so much from you You know we met 663 00:42:53,390 --> 00:43:00,420 through X And I'm so grateful because I'm 664 00:43:00,420 --> 00:43:09,234 learning a lot from all of you from Lori 665 00:43:09,234 --> 00:43:17,222 Adams Brown from Hannah Kate and so many 666 00:43:17,222 --> 00:43:21,834 survivors And I'm very thankful for them 667 00:43:21,834 --> 00:43:24,506 because their voices helped something. a 668 00:43:24,506 --> 00:43:29,610 lot and a still helping me a lot.Oh I 669 00:43:29,610 --> 00:43:33,478 absolutely agree Love Lori a Brown and 670 00:43:33,478 --> 00:43:39,198 Hannah Kate As well and their courage and 671 00:43:39,198 --> 00:43:44,320 their voice to speak out about the 672 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,434 childhood sexual abuse in the SBC and work 673 00:43:48,434 --> 00:43:50,926 for justice for all survivors including 674 00:43:50,926 --> 00:43:58,318 themselves has been very inspiring to many 675 00:43:58,318 --> 00:44:04,470 of us But you are also inspiring So thank 676 00:44:04,470 --> 00:44:09,558 you for the work a you do and we're going 677 00:44:09,558 --> 00:44:14,058 to a you to hang out for one more question 678 00:44:14,058 --> 00:44:15,786 with our difference maker community.But 679 00:44:15,786 --> 00:44:19,100 for now for the rest of us thank you so 680 00:44:19,100 --> 00:44:22,746 much for being on today and for this 681 00:44:22,746 --> 00:44:25,206 incredible conversation I hope that the 682 00:44:25,206 --> 00:44:27,434 church too movement as it unfolds in 683 00:44:27,434 --> 00:44:30,026 Brazil will be a space where we see beauty 684 00:44:30,026 --> 00:44:31,230 emerge from the ashes.Yes Thank you Thank 685 00:44:31,230 --> 00:44:32,206 you.I'm so changed because of my 686 00:44:32,206 --> 00:44:33,134 relationship now my friendship with Norma 687 00:44:33,134 --> 00:44:35,214 and the way that she brings her 688 00:44:35,214 --> 00:44:36,318 perspective of not only a firsthand 689 00:44:36,318 --> 00:44:37,626 experience as thank abuse survivor as a 690 00:44:37,626 --> 00:44:40,526 child but also just the incredible amount 691 00:44:40,526 --> 00:44:42,734 of depth and wisdom and knowledge and 692 00:44:42,734 --> 00:44:46,498 research that she has put into this Really 693 00:44:46,498 --> 00:44:51,838 a to learn a lot of it in a language 694 00:44:51,838 --> 00:44:57,714 that's not her mother tongue right Into 695 00:44:57,714 --> 00:45:00,002 researching because lot of this in English 696 00:45:00,002 --> 00:45:01,498 finding resources in the United States 697 00:45:01,498 --> 00:45:04,666 outside of her own country to help herself 698 00:45:04,666 --> 00:45:08,266 a other abuse survivors in this growing as 699 00:45:08,266 --> 00:45:12,458 church tomb movement there in Brazil And 700 00:45:12,458 --> 00:45:14,874 just knowing that many listening to this 701 00:45:14,874 --> 00:45:16,814 today are probably feeling impacted by 702 00:45:16,814 --> 00:45:19,806 what you've heard maybe you along with 703 00:45:19,806 --> 00:45:21,466 Norma are finding yourself listening to 704 00:45:21,466 --> 00:45:23,278 this podcast and having a similar 705 00:45:23,278 --> 00:45:25,946 experience to a she had when she heard Dr 706 00:45:25,946 --> 00:45:28,066 Diane Lamberg speak in person in 2015 at a 707 00:45:28,066 --> 00:45:30,766 reform conference there in Brazil and 708 00:45:30,766 --> 00:45:34,974 taking notes about abuse and suddenly 709 00:45:34,974 --> 00:45:38,306 having this incredibly difficult and dark 710 00:45:38,306 --> 00:45:40,418 and surprising realization that probably 711 00:45:40,418 --> 00:45:45,974 was shocking that she herself was also an 712 00:45:45,974 --> 00:45:47,702 abuse survivor.Because at 14 consent 713 00:45:47,702 --> 00:45:50,406 cannot be possible with are man who's 40 714 00:45:50,406 --> 00:45:53,106 years old and having lived a of those 715 00:45:53,106 --> 00:45:55,242 years not fully understanding what had 716 00:45:55,242 --> 00:45:58,026 happened to her of course is traumatic and 717 00:45:58,026 --> 00:46:00,518 can lead a depression and having to 718 00:46:00,518 --> 00:46:03,254 complete assignments taking school that 719 00:46:03,254 --> 00:46:07,918 are difficult Will of course because 720 00:46:07,918 --> 00:46:12,110 trauma really does affect one's ability to 721 00:46:12,110 --> 00:46:15,326 initiate because the brain is so impacted 722 00:46:15,326 --> 00:46:17,970 trying to process everything that has 723 00:46:17,970 --> 00:46:21,202 happened And so I just feel a lot of 724 00:46:21,202 --> 00:46:24,098 compassion for her when she shares her 725 00:46:24,098 --> 00:46:27,234 story And I know that she feels so much 726 00:46:27,234 --> 00:46:29,958 compassion for others who go through 727 00:46:29,958 --> 00:46:33,942 similar stories currently who are going 728 00:46:33,942 --> 00:46:37,126 through them or are suddenly realizing 729 00:46:37,126 --> 00:46:40,102 things about their past And this is why 730 00:46:40,102 --> 00:46:43,962 she speaks out so strongly to prevent.She 731 00:46:43,962 --> 00:46:46,138 wants to warn those in Brazil who are 732 00:46:46,138 --> 00:46:48,202 reading books in Portuguese translated 733 00:46:48,202 --> 00:46:50,778 from English about particular pastors here 734 00:46:50,778 --> 00:46:52,566 in the United States who've been abusive 735 00:46:52,566 --> 00:46:54,326 And if you join in on our Patreon 736 00:46:54,326 --> 00:46:56,574 conversation with her in our difference 737 00:46:56,574 --> 00:46:59,966 makers community she goes into detail more 738 00:46:59,966 --> 00:47:02,154 about a journalist here in the United 739 00:47:02,154 --> 00:47:05,102 States who has really done quite a bit of 740 00:47:05,102 --> 00:47:07,102 work around exposing the abuse behind 741 00:47:07,102 --> 00:47:09,778 several of these to And it was through the 742 00:47:09,778 --> 00:47:12,402 work of this particular journalist that 743 00:47:12,402 --> 00:47:16,994 also helped open up Norma's eyes to see 744 00:47:16,994 --> 00:47:20,486 some of these books that are being 745 00:47:20,486 --> 00:47:23,046 translated and read widely in Brazil And 746 00:47:23,046 --> 00:47:25,654 these pastors are coming to speak at large 747 00:47:25,654 --> 00:47:29,158 conferences with lots of people a and 748 00:47:29,158 --> 00:47:30,758 absorbing this information and these 749 00:47:30,758 --> 00:47:32,418 tactics which end up being silencing 750 00:47:32,418 --> 00:47:36,266 toward any abuse survivors that come out 751 00:47:36,266 --> 00:47:37,946 against any type of spiritual authority in 752 00:47:37,946 --> 00:47:40,874 these circles now in Brazil and it's only 753 00:47:40,874 --> 00:47:43,354 making also problem worse It's only taking 754 00:47:43,354 --> 00:47:45,166 the mistakes of what has happened in the 755 00:47:45,166 --> 00:47:47,514 United States culture and exporting that 756 00:47:47,514 --> 00:47:49,294 into a place that doesn't need any extra 757 00:47:49,294 --> 00:47:51,520 mistakes to be made.Every culture has 758 00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:58,174 enough of its own work to do without 759 00:47:58,174 --> 00:48:00,514 adding on issues from another culture on 760 00:48:00,514 --> 00:48:03,426 top of it all And so it's heartbreaking 761 00:48:03,426 --> 00:48:06,274 it's alarming I'm so grateful for Norma 762 00:48:06,274 --> 00:48:10,302 and her voice there in Brazil for those 763 00:48:10,302 --> 00:48:14,294 who are amplifying her voice thank you for 764 00:48:14,294 --> 00:48:15,174 doing that because she's certainly 765 00:48:15,174 --> 00:48:17,398 amplifying the voices of survivors as well 766 00:48:17,398 --> 00:48:19,878 a come to her and share information that 767 00:48:19,878 --> 00:48:22,566 helps her see the pattern of what's 768 00:48:22,566 --> 00:48:25,206 happening there And of course she holds 769 00:48:25,206 --> 00:48:27,674 stories and confidence when people ask for 770 00:48:27,674 --> 00:48:31,030 that But it also helps her to see the 771 00:48:31,030 --> 00:48:32,586 pattern when people share with her.And 772 00:48:32,586 --> 00:48:34,154 therefore she speaks out not just for 773 00:48:34,154 --> 00:48:36,094 herself although speaking out for herself 774 00:48:36,094 --> 00:48:38,574 would absolutely be worth all of it 775 00:48:38,574 --> 00:48:41,054 because every human being is precious and 776 00:48:41,054 --> 00:48:45,486 a child of God and and image bearer of God 777 00:48:45,486 --> 00:48:47,470 and is worth fighting for for justice for 778 00:48:47,470 --> 00:48:48,718 protection for healing for that redemption 779 00:48:48,718 --> 00:48:50,626 that we talked about with the Cristo 780 00:48:50,626 --> 00:48:51,906 Radentor statue there in Rio that's world 781 00:48:51,906 --> 00:48:54,014 famous You see pictures of this from all 782 00:48:54,014 --> 00:48:57,602 around the world I got to see the statue 783 00:48:57,602 --> 00:49:00,246 when I was there a few weeks ago And even 784 00:49:00,246 --> 00:49:03,542 when I was there Taylor Swift came in in 785 00:49:03,542 --> 00:49:05,206 concert and they changed the statue with 786 00:49:05,206 --> 00:49:08,530 these visual effects that look like a T 787 00:49:08,530 --> 00:49:12,786 shirt of Taylor Swift on the statue.This 788 00:49:12,786 --> 00:49:15,606 is that worldwide famous statue that is a 789 00:49:15,606 --> 00:49:17,322 reminder of there outstretched arms of 790 00:49:17,322 --> 00:49:20,346 Jesus wanting to offer us love and 791 00:49:20,346 --> 00:49:21,738 redemption for things we've done wrong but 792 00:49:21,738 --> 00:49:23,498 also things that have been done wrong to 793 00:49:23,498 --> 00:49:25,402 us And that's the part we often miss The 794 00:49:25,402 --> 00:49:27,806 work of justice is in that shame with 795 00:49:27,806 --> 00:49:31,386 honor and restoring what was broken and 796 00:49:31,386 --> 00:49:32,698 making wrongs right and working for 797 00:49:32,698 --> 00:49:35,246 hEaling It's not just about quick easy 798 00:49:35,246 --> 00:49:37,726 cheap grace a forgiveness It's about the 799 00:49:37,726 --> 00:49:39,886 deep work of restoration and 800 00:49:39,886 --> 00:49:41,794 reconciliation and redemption and not 801 00:49:41,794 --> 00:49:43,630 putting that burden on the 802 00:49:43,630 --> 00:49:45,874 victim.Survivors themselves but the ones 803 00:49:45,874 --> 00:49:47,362 who perpetrated the abuse to be the ones 804 00:49:47,362 --> 00:49:49,110 to do that hard work those around that 805 00:49:49,110 --> 00:49:52,434 person to not live in betrayal blindness 806 00:49:52,434 --> 00:49:55,286 but to call them to account restoring not 807 00:49:55,286 --> 00:49:57,462 platform people who have abused in our 808 00:49:57,462 --> 00:50:01,770 country and also send them to other 809 00:50:01,770 --> 00:50:04,166 countries to teach other people tactics 810 00:50:04,166 --> 00:50:06,314 that cover up and don't expose the 811 00:50:06,314 --> 00:50:10,394 darkness to help us heal but instead 812 00:50:10,394 --> 00:50:13,274 replace that with an openness a truth a 813 00:50:13,274 --> 00:50:15,706 transparency that allows people to work 814 00:50:15,706 --> 00:50:17,054 for prevention so that others are not 815 00:50:17,054 --> 00:50:19,760 victimized but also to hold people to 816 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,686 account to make wrongs right and to stop 817 00:50:22,686 --> 00:50:25,006 abusing others and using their position of 818 00:50:25,006 --> 00:50:27,058 prestige and respect and spiritual 819 00:50:27,058 --> 00:50:29,266 authority to hide the dark deeds that are 820 00:50:29,266 --> 00:50:33,406 done to other and continue to do so So I 821 00:50:33,406 --> 00:50:36,962 really appreciate the work that Norma is 822 00:50:36,962 --> 00:50:40,566 doing I know it's such an uphill a and 823 00:50:40,566 --> 00:50:44,134 she's lost so much of her previous 824 00:50:44,134 --> 00:50:46,242 community in order to speak out against 825 00:50:46,242 --> 00:50:49,014 this And her courage is incredibly 826 00:50:49,014 --> 00:50:51,430 inspiring And I believe her in her own 827 00:50:51,430 --> 00:50:55,766 story and I'm so grateful to call her 828 00:50:55,766 --> 00:50:58,198 friend and she's really impacted my life 829 00:50:58,198 --> 00:50:59,674 in a significant way.So if you're 830 00:50:59,674 --> 00:51:01,882 listening now from Brazil anywhere in 831 00:51:01,882 --> 00:51:04,266 South America here in the United States 832 00:51:04,266 --> 00:51:06,206 work anywhere in the world I hope that you 833 00:51:06,206 --> 00:51:08,782 do go follow her on Twitter to hear more 834 00:51:08,782 --> 00:51:11,374 of what she's in that you look for her 835 00:51:11,374 --> 00:51:14,878 book that will be coming out that you look 836 00:51:14,878 --> 00:51:17,086 for her on YouTube or any other place 837 00:51:17,086 --> 00:51:18,766 where she's speaking out against these 838 00:51:18,766 --> 00:51:21,054 things She does so at great personal risk 839 00:51:21,054 --> 00:51:22,962 because she cares so deeply about 840 00:51:22,962 --> 00:51:25,230 prevention and helping people heal and 841 00:51:25,230 --> 00:51:26,654 calling our faith based spaces to be 842 00:51:26,654 --> 00:51:27,746 places of healing truth transparency and 843 00:51:27,746 --> 00:51:30,334 protection for the vulnerable And that we 844 00:51:30,334 --> 00:51:32,546 are nowhere near the word oppression that 845 00:51:32,546 --> 00:51:34,566 we are the opposite But we are serving we 846 00:51:34,566 --> 00:51:36,854 are loving we are making places safe 847 00:51:36,854 --> 00:51:38,246 psychologically physically relationally 848 00:51:38,246 --> 00:51:39,046 spiritually sexually financially safe 849 00:51:39,046 --> 00:51:41,914 Places where we can thrive and flourish 850 00:51:41,914 --> 00:51:44,902 together.And that takes some hard work 851 00:51:44,902 --> 00:51:47,926 There's because lot of work to be done And 852 00:51:47,926 --> 00:51:51,706 I'm so glad that people like her live in 853 00:51:51,706 --> 00:51:55,958 Rio are doing this work And for all of 854 00:51:55,958 --> 00:51:58,634 those who are supporting her thank you 855 00:51:58,634 --> 00:52:01,454 Because doing this alone is not easy.And 856 00:52:01,454 --> 00:52:03,562 we need support and we need more voices to 857 00:52:03,562 --> 00:52:05,802 amplify each other and these perspectives 858 00:52:05,802 --> 00:52:10,622 So we bring these perspectives around the 859 00:52:10,622 --> 00:52:14,514 table with our differences and we make a 860 00:52:14,514 --> 00:52:15,650 difference together And Norma is 861 00:52:15,650 --> 00:52:16,706 absolutely one of those people making a 862 00:52:16,706 --> 00:52:18,482 difference there in Rio So grateful to 863 00:52:18,482 --> 00:52:20,718 know her and grateful that if you haven't 864 00:52:20,718 --> 00:52:24,434 known her until today that you get to be 865 00:52:24,434 --> 00:52:27,106 introduced to her too Please continue to 866 00:52:27,106 --> 00:52:29,606 follow her and the work that she does and 867 00:52:29,606 --> 00:52:31,606 once again join us in our difference maker 868 00:52:31,606 --> 00:52:34,146 community to learn more and go a little 869 00:52:34,146 --> 00:52:36,474 bit deeper in this conversation.I ask her 870 00:52:36,474 --> 00:52:39,546 there to a more about her own personal 871 00:52:39,546 --> 00:52:40,778 firsthand experience of being an abuse 872 00:52:40,778 --> 00:52:42,886 survivor and what tools and strategies 873 00:52:42,886 --> 00:52:44,746 worked for her and are continuing to work 874 00:52:44,746 --> 00:52:46,458 for her specifically in her own healing 875 00:52:46,458 --> 00:52:48,202 journey as she continues to help others 876 00:52:48,202 --> 00:52:49,758 heal And that conversation was pretty 877 00:52:49,758 --> 00:52:51,226 impactful for me So I hope that you join 878 00:52:51,226 --> 00:52:53,678 us there You can go to www Dot Patreon 879 00:52:53,678 --> 00:52:54,746 patreon.com A world of difference and 880 00:52:54,746 --> 00:52:56,574 you'll get all kinds of exclusive content 881 00:52:56,574 --> 00:52:58,110 that is just available there for our 882 00:52:58,110 --> 00:53:00,718 difference maker community.You can join us 883 00:53:00,718 --> 00:53:04,386 for as little as 5 and month which is the 884 00:53:04,386 --> 00:53:07,106 price of your regular late every week If 885 00:53:07,106 --> 00:53:10,294 you go do that But yeah for an entire 886 00:53:10,294 --> 00:53:13,702 month just as little as 5 you can get a 887 00:53:13,702 --> 00:53:15,506 bunch of exclusive interviews with all 888 00:53:15,506 --> 00:53:19,826 different guests I've had here on the show 889 00:53:19,826 --> 00:53:26,090 and some other fun things like Lori's 890 00:53:26,090 --> 00:53:27,734 travel tips and opportunities to speak 891 00:53:27,734 --> 00:53:30,490 into the podcast So yeah join us there You 892 00:53:30,490 --> 00:53:32,666 can also do a preview of the conversation 893 00:53:32,666 --> 00:53:35,482 with any of the previous guests and if you 894 00:53:35,482 --> 00:53:38,390 like what your see then you can sign 895 00:53:38,390 --> 00:53:41,022 up.Glad to have you join us there where we 896 00:53:41,022 --> 00:53:42,606 go a little bit deeper into conversations 897 00:53:42,606 --> 00:53:44,446 around how to make a difference together 898 00:53:44,446 --> 00:53:46,206 It's all very special community that means 899 00:53:46,206 --> 00:53:49,514 a lot to me So I was glad to have her on 900 00:53:49,514 --> 00:53:51,374 there for another exclusive interview So 901 00:53:51,374 --> 00:53:52,866 yeah Patreon.com the world of difference 902 00:53:52,866 --> 00:53:54,830 Thank you also much for every one.Of you 903 00:53:54,830 --> 00:53:57,714 out there making a difference all around 904 00:53:57,714 --> 00:53:59,506 the world I really appreciate you and 905 00:53:59,506 --> 00:54:01,346 would love to hear more about what you're 906 00:54:01,346 --> 00:54:02,466 doing So always reach out to me on Twitter 907 00:54:02,466 --> 00:54:04,438 at Loriadbr I'm conversations Instagram at 908 00:54:04,438 --> 00:54:06,102 Lori Adams Brown Not as often on Facebook 909 00:54:06,102 --> 00:54:07,574 but you can occasionally find me there.But 910 00:54:07,574 --> 00:54:09,334 of course would love to hear from you and 911 00:54:09,334 --> 00:54:12,518 what you're doing to make a difference 912 00:54:12,518 --> 00:54:15,482 Take care of your one and keep Making a 913 00:54:15,482 --> 00:54:17,338 difference wherever you are Bye undefined 914 00:54:17,338 --> 00:54:18,426 undefined undefined undefined undefined 915 00:54:18,426 --> 00:54:19,818 undefined undefined undefined undefined 916 00:54:19,818 --> 00:54:21,402 undefined undefined undefined undefined 917 00:54:21,402 --> 00:54:22,074 undefined undefined undefined undefined 918 00:54:22,074 --> 00:54:23,046 undefined undefined undefined undefined 919 00:54:23,046 --> 00:54:23,994 undefined undefined undefined undefined 920 00:54:23,994 --> 00:54:24,938 undefined undefined undefined undefined 921 00:54:24,938 --> 00:54:27,206 undefined undefined undefined undefined 922 00:54:27,206 --> 00:54:28,534 undefined undefined undefined undefined 923 00:54:28,534 --> 00:54:30,586 undefined undefined undefined undefined 924 00:54:30,586 --> 00:54:31,626 undefined undefined undefined undefined 925 00:54:31,626 --> 00:54:32,634 undefined undefined undefined undefined 926 00:54:32,634 --> 00:54:34,426 undefined undefined undefined undefined 927 00:54:34,426 --> 00:54:35,578 undefined undefined undefined undefined 928 00:54:35,578 --> 00:54:36,258 undefined undefined undefined undefined 929 00:54:36,258 --> 00:54:36,786 undefined undefined undefined undefined 930 00:54:36,786 --> 00:54:38,226 undefined undefined undefined undefined 931 00:54:38,226 --> 00:54:38,834 undefined undefined undefined undefined 932 00:54:38,834 --> 00:54:39,538 undefined undefined undefined undefined 933 00:54:39,538 --> 00:54:41,106 undefined undefined undefined undefined