Johnna Harris's Story of Spiritual and Emotional Abuse and Advocating for Survivors

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458 Welcome to the a World of Difference 2 00:00:04,458 --> 00:00:07,194 podcast. I'm Lori Adams and this this a a 3 00:00:07,194 --> 00:00:08,718 for those who are different and want to 4 00:00:08,718 --> 00:00:12,126 make make difference This podcast is 5 00:00:12,126 --> 00:00:14,094 sponsored by Betterhelp If you find 6 00:00:14,094 --> 00:00:16,170 yourself walking through any difficulty 7 00:00:16,170 --> 00:00:18,538 whether it's in a a relationship, conflict 8 00:00:18,538 --> 00:00:21,870 any traumatic event or any type of abuse I 9 00:00:21,870 --> 00:00:24,366 can say firsthand that Betterhelp has been 10 00:00:24,366 --> 00:00:26,886 an extremely helpful for me in my own 11 00:00:26,886 --> 00:00:29,314 healing journey from abuse in a religious 12 00:00:29,314 --> 00:00:32,322 environment And through working with a a 13 00:00:32,322 --> 00:00:34,390 over several months I've been able to 14 00:00:34,390 --> 00:00:36,326 really get further down the road in my own 15 00:00:36,326 --> 00:00:37,874 healing journey through some somatic 16 00:00:37,874 --> 00:00:40,578 practices some worksheets that we've 17 00:00:40,578 --> 00:00:41,786 worked through that help me learn some 18 00:00:41,786 --> 00:00:44,090 grounding techniques and help address 19 00:00:44,090 --> 00:00:46,794 areas of self care.As I work through As we 20 00:00:46,794 --> 00:00:49,274 say the body keeps the score and doing the 21 00:00:49,274 --> 00:00:51,930 hard work of recovery is something that 22 00:00:51,930 --> 00:00:54,414 has been much more helpful to have a 23 00:00:54,414 --> 00:00:57,054 professional a alongside me So my 24 00:00:57,054 --> 00:00:58,926 therapist at Betterhelp has been 25 00:00:58,926 --> 00:01:01,774 incredibly helpful for me and so I am 26 00:01:01,774 --> 00:01:03,066 happy to say that they sponsor this 27 00:01:03,066 --> 00:01:04,946 podcast and we have an offer for you today 28 00:01:04,946 --> 00:01:06,834 If you are looking for some professional 29 00:01:06,834 --> 00:01:08,802 help you can go to www.betterhelp.com 30 00:01:08,802 --> 00:01:14,594 difference to get 10 off your first month 31 00:01:14,594 --> 00:01:16,422 Once again the link is www.betterhelp.com 32 00:01:16,422 --> 00:01:22,486 difference and get that 10 off and give 33 00:01:22,486 --> 00:01:23,954 yourself the gift of healing today.Excited 34 00:01:23,954 --> 00:01:27,062 today today. have today good friend a 35 00:01:27,062 --> 00:01:29,994 other podcast host on the show today And 36 00:01:29,994 --> 00:01:32,266 many of you who listen to this podcast 37 00:01:32,266 --> 00:01:35,062 also listen to also podcast called Bodies 38 00:01:35,062 --> 00:01:38,474 behind the bus hosted by my friend Johnna 39 00:01:38,474 --> 00:01:40,474 Harris who's Jonna the show today Johnna 40 00:01:40,474 --> 00:01:43,294 is the co host of Bodies behind the Bus 41 00:01:43,294 --> 00:01:46,110 podcast and she has and huge passion for 42 00:01:46,110 --> 00:01:48,426 stories and really believes they can 43 00:01:48,426 --> 00:01:51,178 believes a catalyst for a She herself is a 44 00:01:51,178 --> 00:01:55,838 survivor of a abuse religious abuse as a 45 00:01:55,838 --> 00:01:58,990 staff member a staff church in a and is 46 00:01:58,990 --> 00:02:02,286 now and advocate for abuse survivors where 47 00:02:02,286 --> 00:02:04,418 she on the bodies behind the bus podcast 48 00:02:04,418 --> 00:02:07,798 along with her co host listen and bear 49 00:02:07,798 --> 00:02:10,054 witness to the stories of those who have 50 00:02:10,054 --> 00:02:12,402 experienced spiritual abuse in spiritual 51 00:02:12,402 --> 00:02:16,006 religious environment And not only is she 52 00:02:16,006 --> 00:02:19,094 a passionate person a advocacy for justice 53 00:02:19,094 --> 00:02:21,894 and the work of listening and centering 54 00:02:21,894 --> 00:02:25,382 survivors but she's also a mother of four 55 00:02:25,382 --> 00:02:28,954 young kids.But she spends time in her busy 56 00:02:28,954 --> 00:02:32,062 life of being a mom to host this podcast 57 00:02:32,062 --> 00:02:35,278 to also work with Sacred Wilderness which 58 00:02:35,278 --> 00:02:38,250 is an organization that's there to serve 59 00:02:38,250 --> 00:02:39,834 people who've experienced spiritual abuse 60 00:02:39,834 --> 00:02:42,862 And you can find her advocating for 61 00:02:42,862 --> 00:02:46,130 survivors in social media spaces like 62 00:02:46,130 --> 00:02:48,546 twitter and on threads Many of you have 63 00:02:48,546 --> 00:02:51,474 encountered her and the way that she 64 00:02:51,474 --> 00:02:53,234 really stands with survivors and centers 65 00:02:53,234 --> 00:02:56,386 their voices So I'm really excited to have 66 00:02:56,386 --> 00:02:58,294 her on the show today but also just wanted 67 00:02:58,294 --> 00:03:00,406 to make sure any of you out there 68 00:03:00,406 --> 00:03:01,686 understand that there is understand 69 00:03:01,686 --> 00:03:03,894 trigger warning because we will be 70 00:03:03,894 --> 00:03:06,866 discussing spiritual abuse in a religious 71 00:03:06,866 --> 00:03:08,646 environment And if that is something you 72 00:03:08,646 --> 00:03:10,966 have walked through just wanted to make 73 00:03:10,966 --> 00:03:13,514 sure you to that taking care of yourself 74 00:03:13,514 --> 00:03:15,110 is of utmost importance.Today we are 75 00:03:15,110 --> 00:03:18,026 having Johnna on for are two part episode 76 00:03:18,026 --> 00:03:20,250 So this is part one where she's going to 77 00:03:20,250 --> 00:03:22,794 discuss in detail some of her abuse that 78 00:03:22,794 --> 00:03:24,778 she experienced and walked through And 79 00:03:24,778 --> 00:03:27,262 then on our second part of our episode 80 00:03:27,262 --> 00:03:29,374 she's going to discuss more of some of the 81 00:03:29,374 --> 00:03:30,750 other things that she has experienced 82 00:03:30,750 --> 00:03:33,290 since then and why she has gone into the 83 00:03:33,290 --> 00:03:35,394 advocacy work and also some very specific 84 00:03:35,394 --> 00:03:37,634 ways she's being an advocate for survivors 85 00:03:37,634 --> 00:03:40,546 being the Southern Baptist church and 86 00:03:40,546 --> 00:03:43,746 convention environment And so this is part 87 00:03:43,746 --> 00:03:45,938 one where you get to know where a little 88 00:03:45,938 --> 00:03:47,314 bit better and why she stepped into the 89 00:03:47,314 --> 00:03:50,214 advocacy space But definitely tune in in a 90 00:03:50,214 --> 00:03:51,526 few days when we a part two.So really 91 00:03:51,526 --> 00:03:54,466 happy to introduce to you today my friend 92 00:03:54,466 --> 00:03:57,506 and host of bodies behind the bus podcast 93 00:03:57,506 --> 00:03:59,654 Johnna Harris.Hello my good friend Johnna 94 00:03:59,654 --> 00:04:09,082 Harris It's so exciting to have you on the 95 00:04:09,082 --> 00:04:10,902 podcast today How are you feeling today 96 00:04:10,902 --> 00:04:13,614 How's it going there in Arizona It is so 97 00:04:13,614 --> 00:04:16,382 gorgeous.I mean you're in California so 98 00:04:16,382 --> 00:04:18,494 you have gorgeous weather too but we're at 99 00:04:18,494 --> 00:04:20,958 like peak Arizona weather, time so it is 100 00:04:20,958 --> 00:04:25,102 going well over here and I'm super excited 101 00:04:25,102 --> 00:04:27,374 to be here too We had you over on bodies 102 00:04:27,374 --> 00:04:29,106 behind the bus and so I'm really pumped to 103 00:04:29,106 --> 00:04:30,754 come over to a world of difference and 104 00:04:30,754 --> 00:04:32,466 hang out with you over here for and little 105 00:04:32,466 --> 00:04:33,826 bit now It's so awesome We definitely have 106 00:04:33,826 --> 00:04:36,894 a Venn diagram where our podcast listener 107 00:04:36,894 --> 00:04:38,918 community converges and it's unfortunately 108 00:04:38,918 --> 00:04:43,782 around not great topics but ones that we 109 00:04:43,782 --> 00:04:45,926 need to talk about that you and I seem to 110 00:04:45,926 --> 00:04:47,442 somehow have been thrown into Know just 111 00:04:47,442 --> 00:04:51,482 the nature of both having these weird 112 00:04:51,482 --> 00:04:52,842 experiences here in California where 113 00:04:52,842 --> 00:04:56,394 somehow we both were working for pastors 114 00:04:56,394 --> 00:04:59,238 in the state of California that somehow 115 00:04:59,238 --> 00:05:00,878 ended up illegally recording us and 116 00:05:00,878 --> 00:05:03,194 abusing us emotionally and spiritually.And 117 00:05:03,194 --> 00:05:06,522 I'm really sad that our ven diagrams 118 00:05:06,522 --> 00:05:08,286 converge there But fortunately this 119 00:05:08,286 --> 00:05:10,462 particular community would love to hear 120 00:05:10,462 --> 00:05:14,002 about you and your story because many of 121 00:05:14,002 --> 00:05:16,642 them have had either toxic workplace 122 00:05:16,642 --> 00:05:17,954 environments that they've worked in or 123 00:05:17,954 --> 00:05:19,966 abusive situations of various types 124 00:05:19,966 --> 00:05:22,766 emotional abuse spiritual abuse physical 125 00:05:22,766 --> 00:05:26,430 sexual the gamut of types of abuse out 126 00:05:26,430 --> 00:05:29,686 there And because you are the kind of 127 00:05:29,686 --> 00:05:32,566 person that really is trying to make a 128 00:05:32,566 --> 00:05:33,638 difference in the world and the 129 00:05:33,638 --> 00:05:35,654 differences that you bring to the table 130 00:05:35,654 --> 00:05:37,986 are that you are also a survivor I'd love 131 00:05:37,986 --> 00:05:41,178 for you just to give just a little short 132 00:05:41,178 --> 00:05:43,274 synopsis of sort of what you a through 133 00:05:43,274 --> 00:05:46,794 that gave you the desire to want to 134 00:05:46,794 --> 00:05:50,426 prevent this to happening to others and 135 00:05:50,426 --> 00:05:51,950 starting your podcast Sure.Thanks again 136 00:05:51,950 --> 00:05:55,902 for having me Super honored to be here A 137 00:05:55,902 --> 00:06:02,062 short little intro I guess So I was raised 138 00:06:02,062 --> 00:06:04,946 in the evangelical church.Pretty 139 00:06:04,946 --> 00:06:07,474 fundamentalist If any of your listeners 140 00:06:07,474 --> 00:06:10,546 are in the evangelical world names like 141 00:06:10,546 --> 00:06:13,294 Johnna Harris were very common in the 142 00:06:13,294 --> 00:06:17,718 circles I grew up in And through my 143 00:06:17,718 --> 00:06:18,934 journey in adulthood Mark Driscoll was 144 00:06:18,934 --> 00:06:26,258 also on the rise And my husband and I 145 00:06:26,258 --> 00:06:30,706 ended up through a series of events at 146 00:06:30,706 --> 00:06:32,746 husband acts 29 church where I a the 147 00:06:32,746 --> 00:06:34,842 worship leader And that whole journey just 148 00:06:34,842 --> 00:06:37,594 to me becoming the worship leader. on 149 00:06:37,594 --> 00:06:39,706 staff a forward facing position from stage 150 00:06:39,706 --> 00:06:42,990 was hard for me just a to wrestle with 151 00:06:42,990 --> 00:06:47,786 because the way I was raised the way I've 152 00:06:47,786 --> 00:06:49,962 been taught about church and women's roles 153 00:06:49,962 --> 00:06:52,998 in churches is that you do not speak from 154 00:06:52,998 --> 00:06:54,946 stage.Basically this would never be said 155 00:06:54,946 --> 00:06:59,986 but women are to be seen and not heard and 156 00:06:59,986 --> 00:07:02,770 seen is like you have to be seen in a very 157 00:07:02,770 --> 00:07:06,418 specific way or you're tempting everybody 158 00:07:06,418 --> 00:07:08,526 Hot mess But I a initially said no when 159 00:07:08,526 --> 00:07:13,714 they asked if I would lead worship because 160 00:07:13,714 --> 00:07:16,242 I said I can't because I'm a woman And my 161 00:07:16,242 --> 00:07:19,330 first boss who hired me was like that's 162 00:07:19,330 --> 00:07:22,474 not true Yes you can.And so over a couple 163 00:07:22,474 --> 00:07:26,346 of years with that first boss who I would 164 00:07:26,346 --> 00:07:28,122 say I think your listeners are pretty up 165 00:07:28,122 --> 00:07:31,326 to date with what complementarianism and 166 00:07:31,326 --> 00:07:33,806 egalitarianism is But do they need a 167 00:07:33,806 --> 00:07:36,682 little refresher Sure Give us your 168 00:07:36,682 --> 00:07:38,654 synopsis of that My jaunda synopsis is 169 00:07:38,654 --> 00:07:41,146 complementarianism is that men and women 170 00:07:41,146 --> 00:07:44,306 were made equally valuable but with 171 00:07:44,306 --> 00:07:46,306 complementary roles.So women have specific 172 00:07:46,306 --> 00:07:52,750 roles under God's design of them and men 173 00:07:52,750 --> 00:07:56,994 have specific roles and they do not really 174 00:07:56,994 --> 00:07:58,774 Harrisscross And to be actually living 175 00:07:58,774 --> 00:08:00,742 right before God in your church community 176 00:08:00,742 --> 00:08:06,438 you need to be living within that box of 177 00:08:06,438 --> 00:08:08,506 the roles underneath that belief system 178 00:08:08,506 --> 00:08:10,778 Egalitarianism is women can be in church 179 00:08:10,778 --> 00:08:15,590 leadership women can preach women can be 180 00:08:15,590 --> 00:08:18,810 in elder roles And there is a whole 181 00:08:18,810 --> 00:08:21,866 spectrum of people that fall all over the 182 00:08:21,866 --> 00:08:24,654 place with where they a either all the way 183 00:08:24,654 --> 00:08:26,238 egalitarian fall the way complementarian 184 00:08:26,238 --> 00:08:29,262 or this weird middle ground And I would 185 00:08:29,262 --> 00:08:34,686 say that's where my first boss landed and 186 00:08:34,686 --> 00:08:35,618 weird call that soft 187 00:08:35,618 --> 00:08:36,126 complementarianism.And he really 188 00:08:36,126 --> 00:08:38,514 encouraged me as a woman coming out of 189 00:08:38,514 --> 00:08:43,934 that space that I had giftings and 190 00:08:43,934 --> 00:08:46,726 encouraged voice And he is not 191 00:08:46,726 --> 00:08:48,662 complementarian Anymore From what I know 192 00:08:48,662 --> 00:08:53,366 he's actually egalitarian now He was doing 193 00:08:53,366 --> 00:08:55,622 the best he could within the framework 194 00:08:55,622 --> 00:08:58,534 that we were in with the acts 29 network 195 00:08:58,534 --> 00:09:00,906 which for anybody listening I guess I 196 00:09:00,906 --> 00:09:05,130 should probably give you a little bit of 197 00:09:05,130 --> 00:09:06,906 what acts 29 network is.So the Southern 198 00:09:06,906 --> 00:09:08,298 Baptist convention is like our We're like 199 00:09:08,298 --> 00:09:13,258 the punk rock little brother is. what I 200 00:09:13,258 --> 00:09:18,234 call acts 29 We have all the same beliefs 201 00:09:18,234 --> 00:09:20,026 as the SBC but with tattoos and drinking 202 00:09:20,026 --> 00:09:23,586 craft beer So if that helps anybody kind 203 00:09:23,586 --> 00:09:28,894 of place it's sneakier version of the SBC 204 00:09:28,894 --> 00:09:34,002 sneakier version of what it looks like to 205 00:09:34,002 --> 00:09:37,710 be place, woman in church because you 206 00:09:37,710 --> 00:09:41,798 think this is a little it more of like a 207 00:09:41,798 --> 00:09:44,374 progressive space that's going to be more 208 00:09:44,374 --> 00:09:45,286 welcoming and it's really not But.I really 209 00:09:45,286 --> 00:09:46,830 was given a weird opportunity within that 210 00:09:46,830 --> 00:09:53,482 space to grow in my career as a worship 211 00:09:53,482 --> 00:09:57,546 leader and just in my self esteem and self 212 00:09:57,546 --> 00:10:00,114 worth in general And he had a family 213 00:10:00,114 --> 00:10:04,222 Harris and had to step out of ministry And 214 00:10:04,222 --> 00:10:07,038 that's really where everything started to 215 00:10:07,038 --> 00:10:08,686 implode in our church and in particular in 216 00:10:08,686 --> 00:10:13,426 my career and my experience as a worship 217 00:10:13,426 --> 00:10:15,954 leader within an acts 29 church So the 218 00:10:15,954 --> 00:10:19,538 current president of acts 29 was randomly 219 00:10:19,538 --> 00:10:26,742 a as an elder at our church even though 220 00:10:26,742 --> 00:10:31,234 the didn't attend our church at the moment 221 00:10:31,234 --> 00:10:33,366 My boss stepped out and he headed the 222 00:10:33,366 --> 00:10:36,294 search committee for our new pastor and 223 00:10:36,294 --> 00:10:39,914 that new pastor would become my boss.And 224 00:10:39,914 --> 00:10:46,058 he came in about a little under a year 225 00:10:46,058 --> 00:10:49,100 after my original boss had stepped out of 226 00:10:49,100 --> 00:10:54,126 ministry And pretty much off the bat there 227 00:10:54,126 --> 00:10:58,990 a red flags Now I can fully see those red 228 00:10:58,990 --> 00:11:02,474 flags in the moment There was bat, lot of 229 00:11:02,474 --> 00:11:03,794 conversation surrounding relational 230 00:11:03,794 --> 00:11:05,538 dynamics and maybe that it just needed 231 00:11:05,538 --> 00:11:08,050 more time to grow Maybe the things that 232 00:11:08,050 --> 00:11:13,266 were feeling off were because we don't 233 00:11:13,266 --> 00:11:15,422 know each other more have relational 234 00:11:15,422 --> 00:11:17,558 equity.But the entire staff was pretty off 235 00:11:17,558 --> 00:11:19,126 the bat just like confused and hurt There 236 00:11:19,126 --> 00:11:26,086 was have lot of hurt There was staff lot 237 00:11:26,086 --> 00:11:29,014 of I'm using air quotes like, 238 00:11:29,014 --> 00:11:31,098 miscommunication that happened Staff 239 00:11:31,098 --> 00:11:32,474 meetings were.I know there's a book that I 240 00:11:32,474 --> 00:11:37,500 have not read I bet you've read it You're 241 00:11:37,500 --> 00:11:41,034 very well read Have you read walking on 242 00:11:41,034 --> 00:11:43,226 eggshells No I have not you go There 243 00:11:43,226 --> 00:11:44,878 you've go I've heard that it's great And 244 00:11:44,878 --> 00:11:47,966 that is like the exact feeling of walking 245 00:11:47,966 --> 00:11:52,334 on eggshells and trying not to cause a 246 00:11:52,334 --> 00:11:54,574 disruption or to cause our boss to be 247 00:11:54,574 --> 00:12:00,178 angry at us was just pretty constant right 248 00:12:00,178 --> 00:12:05,574 off the bat But through that time I asked 249 00:12:05,574 --> 00:12:07,750 a lot of questions.I'm angry very us 250 00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:10,760 person Again I was a forward facing female 251 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,486 role which was already weird in the 252 00:12:14,486 --> 00:12:17,000 network When he was being interviewed he 253 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,562 said he was really excited to work with 254 00:12:20,562 --> 00:12:22,790 females that were forward facing And I 255 00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:25,546 think part of that was the edginess of it 256 00:12:25,546 --> 00:12:27,914 For acts 29 it's edgy to have female 257 00:12:27,914 --> 00:12:30,342 leaders and I think they have been trying 258 00:12:30,342 --> 00:12:32,618 to push to look more welcoming to 259 00:12:32,618 --> 00:12:35,710 females.So I think there was this edgy 260 00:12:35,710 --> 00:12:39,182 component but I don't think he actually 261 00:12:39,182 --> 00:12:42,206 wanted to respect and work alongside a 262 00:12:42,206 --> 00:12:44,654 woman in any capacity And him coming into 263 00:12:44,654 --> 00:12:49,106 that space and realizing he would have to 264 00:12:49,106 --> 00:12:55,814 work with a woman for it to work Like 265 00:12:55,814 --> 00:12:59,350 that's how those roles have into work 266 00:12:59,350 --> 00:13:02,086 Right It just started to fall apart pretty 267 00:13:02,086 --> 00:13:03,558 quickly a the gaslighting started the 268 00:13:03,558 --> 00:13:05,042 tearing down conversations that were 269 00:13:05,042 --> 00:13:07,754 confusing.Lying manipulating a lot of 270 00:13:07,754 --> 00:13:09,430 character Assassin not assassment That's 271 00:13:09,430 --> 00:13:12,442 apart funny way to say assassination 272 00:13:12,442 --> 00:13:16,794 Assassination There you go.I also have 273 00:13:16,794 --> 00:13:22,810 four kids so everyone's going to have to 274 00:13:22,810 --> 00:13:25,358 give me assassment. little bit of credit 275 00:13:25,358 --> 00:13:27,566 Exactly Something like assassment Yeah 276 00:13:27,566 --> 00:13:29,614 Your brain is just only half working.Most 277 00:13:29,614 --> 00:13:31,486 of the time You're having to think about 278 00:13:31,486 --> 00:13:35,002 so many things Yes exactly.So all of that 279 00:13:35,002 --> 00:13:37,842 kind of sets the stage in the quickest 280 00:13:37,842 --> 00:13:39,426 possible way that I can for I had no idea 281 00:13:39,426 --> 00:13:45,906 what was going on I like to say often I 282 00:13:45,906 --> 00:13:48,198 say this about the survivor community too 283 00:13:48,198 --> 00:13:51,062 actually and what we do now but I just 284 00:13:51,062 --> 00:13:54,678 felt like I was like Bambi in the meadow 285 00:13:54,678 --> 00:13:56,662 We're all on the same team here.We're all 286 00:13:56,662 --> 00:13:58,614 passionate about the work that we're doing 287 00:13:58,614 --> 00:13:59,846 We're passionate about this church We're 288 00:13:59,846 --> 00:14:02,054 passionate about this community and that 289 00:14:02,054 --> 00:14:04,874 was just not the case when this pastor 290 00:14:04,874 --> 00:14:07,206 came in Long story short we had the most 291 00:14:07,206 --> 00:14:08,406 ridiculous investigation I'm using air 292 00:14:08,406 --> 00:14:11,246 quotes again done by and group of pastors 293 00:14:11,246 --> 00:14:16,414 in the Pacific church network which is a 294 00:14:16,414 --> 00:14:18,846 Baptist network.They were not qualified in 295 00:14:18,846 --> 00:14:25,634 any way but they loved to tell us how many 296 00:14:25,634 --> 00:14:28,334 a of combined ministry experience the had 297 00:14:28,334 --> 00:14:33,586 And they said that we were a congregation 298 00:14:33,586 --> 00:14:35,846 full of goats not sheep And they kind of 299 00:14:35,846 --> 00:14:37,954 asserted that I was many witch from stage 300 00:14:37,954 --> 00:14:43,014 Truly they did that And they said that we 301 00:14:43,014 --> 00:14:45,462 just didn't like our pastor's autocratic 302 00:14:45,462 --> 00:14:48,426 leadership style.And our whole church 303 00:14:48,426 --> 00:14:51,382 ended up leaving after I a been fired and 304 00:14:51,382 --> 00:14:54,426 multiple staff had stepped down So it was 305 00:14:54,426 --> 00:14:59,946 a hot mess to say the least That is the 306 00:14:59,946 --> 00:15:02,174 very abbreviated version and that was 307 00:15:02,174 --> 00:15:05,680 really the catalyst for why I do what I do 308 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,966 today which is I co host a podcast called 309 00:15:09,966 --> 00:15:14,862 Bodies behind the bus with my dear friend 310 00:15:14,862 --> 00:15:17,986 Jay Coyle and he and his wife were also at 311 00:15:17,986 --> 00:15:20,206 that church with our family And it really 312 00:15:20,206 --> 00:15:22,738 kind of started from me throwing a tweet 313 00:15:22,738 --> 00:15:27,186 out on Twitter I got on Twitter and I said 314 00:15:27,186 --> 00:15:30,200 I had this experience that an acts 29 315 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,054 church.We had done over a year of trying 316 00:15:34,054 --> 00:15:36,278 to escalate it within the network within 317 00:15:36,278 --> 00:15:37,126 Pacific church network within every 318 00:15:37,126 --> 00:15:38,570 possible accountability structure we could 319 00:15:38,570 --> 00:15:42,666 even find an no one would do anything So I 320 00:15:42,666 --> 00:15:44,714 just said I think that we're louder 321 00:15:44,714 --> 00:15:49,082 together And we seem like a little like 322 00:15:49,082 --> 00:15:51,902 ripple in accountability lake when it's 323 00:15:51,902 --> 00:15:56,160 just one of our voices But really truly 324 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:01,918 we're a wave And they want us to feel like 325 00:16:01,918 --> 00:16:03,054 we're on islands but we're not.There's 326 00:16:03,054 --> 00:16:06,074 more of us a I think Do any of you have 327 00:16:06,074 --> 00:16:08,066 stories And I was flooded with dms Flooded 328 00:16:08,066 --> 00:16:09,074 And since then we've been podcasting for 329 00:16:09,074 --> 00:16:11,346 two years Christmas week and we have 60 330 00:16:11,346 --> 00:16:12,418 episodes.Most of them are stories of 331 00:16:12,418 --> 00:16:15,214 people who have experienced abuse within 332 00:16:15,214 --> 00:16:19,878 the western evangelical church A lot of 333 00:16:19,878 --> 00:16:24,582 them are acts 29 We have years, good chunk 334 00:16:24,582 --> 00:16:27,414 of southern Baptist and we're getting more 335 00:16:27,414 --> 00:16:29,058 and more missionary organizations as of 336 00:16:29,058 --> 00:16:34,186 late So that is a very long winded yet 337 00:16:34,186 --> 00:16:36,918 still kind of brief way of how I got into 338 00:16:36,918 --> 00:16:38,554 this Well honestly there's no short 339 00:16:38,554 --> 00:16:41,294 version of any abuse that involves like 340 00:16:41,294 --> 00:16:44,160 emotional abuse or spiritual abuse a 341 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,446 psychological abuse because it builds.I 342 00:16:46,446 --> 00:16:48,510 often say to people there's not one moment 343 00:16:48,510 --> 00:16:55,390 I was attacked honestly, there's street by 344 00:16:55,390 --> 00:17:00,594 a stranger I can't really tell you this in 345 00:17:00,594 --> 00:17:05,906 30 seconds The whole way it builds and the 346 00:17:05,906 --> 00:17:07,186 momentum and the gaslighting and there's 347 00:17:07,186 --> 00:17:08,598 grooming and the dangling the carrots And 348 00:17:08,598 --> 00:17:10,902 even with that so much we end up having to 349 00:17:10,902 --> 00:17:15,526 leave out Right But that does give us sort 350 00:17:15,526 --> 00:17:18,602 of in a nutshell But for all of you her 351 00:17:18,602 --> 00:17:22,860 full story is available on bodies behind 352 00:17:22,860 --> 00:17:25,882 the bus podcast So please go listen to her 353 00:17:25,882 --> 00:17:28,666 story and honor her with just bearing 354 00:17:28,666 --> 00:17:31,770 witness with her a we all need that As 355 00:17:31,770 --> 00:17:33,742 survivors people who will be that 356 00:17:33,742 --> 00:17:36,206 Empathetic witness who will listen to 357 00:17:36,206 --> 00:17:37,422 understand and really empathize and say 358 00:17:37,422 --> 00:17:40,494 they believe us.Because for you and I and 359 00:17:40,494 --> 00:17:42,446 every other survivor listen most of us 360 00:17:42,446 --> 00:17:45,038 have a story where the ones who abused us 361 00:17:45,038 --> 00:17:47,794 made it out that we were the liars or we 362 00:17:47,794 --> 00:17:50,546 were the abusers with their darvo And then 363 00:17:50,546 --> 00:17:52,786 in cases like so often happens in a church 364 00:17:52,786 --> 00:17:55,086 a situation they have these false 365 00:17:55,086 --> 00:17:57,346 narratives they use for image management 366 00:17:57,346 --> 00:17:59,234 to discredit you in the aftermath And so 367 00:17:59,234 --> 00:18:01,154 that is their additional layer of the 368 00:18:01,154 --> 00:18:03,186 retraumatizing that happens So I know a 369 00:18:03,186 --> 00:18:06,086 survivors I talked to would say one of 370 00:18:06,086 --> 00:18:08,086 they most painful parts is losing the 371 00:18:08,086 --> 00:18:10,634 community as a result of them being the 372 00:18:10,634 --> 00:18:13,898 ones harmed and then also having to 373 00:18:13,898 --> 00:18:16,026 additionally lose the community What was 374 00:18:16,026 --> 00:18:18,986 that experience like for you and how are 375 00:18:18,986 --> 00:18:21,674 you sort of walking through finding new 376 00:18:21,674 --> 00:18:24,178 community a all that Man honestly that was 377 00:18:24,178 --> 00:18:27,806 the hardest part by far Like I said it was 378 00:18:27,806 --> 00:18:29,406 so quick that things started to fall apart 379 00:18:29,406 --> 00:18:31,406 when our new pastor came walking our new 380 00:18:31,406 --> 00:18:36,514 boss that I didn't have that relational 381 00:18:36,514 --> 00:18:41,426 equity There were parts of him where I 382 00:18:41,426 --> 00:18:44,466 just gave him that trust and I still had 383 00:18:44,466 --> 00:18:47,014 to work through and I'm still working 384 00:18:47,014 --> 00:18:49,862 through in, therapy what it looked like to 385 00:18:49,862 --> 00:18:52,386 have that religious authority speak lies 386 00:18:52,386 --> 00:18:56,518 over me and worth over me but it was not 387 00:18:56,518 --> 00:18:58,414 the same as having people that I had 388 00:18:58,414 --> 00:19:00,858 walked and lived a lot of life 389 00:19:00,858 --> 00:19:03,254 alongside.I'll tell you the biggest a to 390 00:19:03,254 --> 00:19:06,810 me was people that were empathetic when 391 00:19:06,810 --> 00:19:09,974 they would listen to me but also say well 392 00:19:09,974 --> 00:19:12,686 there's two sides and it's got to be 393 00:19:12,686 --> 00:19:18,526 somewhere in the middle And it was that 394 00:19:18,526 --> 00:19:21,854 middle ground where they could not fathom 395 00:19:21,854 --> 00:19:24,698 that world where this pastor would have 396 00:19:24,698 --> 00:19:29,038 done or behaved the way that I had said he 397 00:19:29,038 --> 00:19:30,866 had.And to me I took that personally For 398 00:19:30,866 --> 00:19:32,946 anybody that's listening the way that 399 00:19:32,946 --> 00:19:35,870 sounds to someone who's experienced a is 400 00:19:35,870 --> 00:19:38,406 that one I've done something to deserve it 401 00:19:38,406 --> 00:19:42,934 and two you think I'm said terrible human 402 00:19:42,934 --> 00:19:45,606 because you have to believe I'm lying then 403 00:19:45,606 --> 00:19:48,246 or you have to think I'm crazy Like you 404 00:19:48,246 --> 00:19:53,882 have to think I'm making this all up right 405 00:19:53,882 --> 00:19:56,886 now or exaggerating it for what I'm 406 00:19:56,886 --> 00:19:59,722 dramatic Fill in the blank Plug in the 407 00:19:59,722 --> 00:20:02,026 descriptor for what I have to be for this 408 00:20:02,026 --> 00:20:04,094 story to not be what I'm telling you it 409 00:20:04,094 --> 00:20:08,334 is.And so we gained a few friendships that 410 00:20:08,334 --> 00:20:11,674 I wasn't expecting during that season And 411 00:20:11,674 --> 00:20:14,754 we did have a unique experience where even 412 00:20:14,754 --> 00:20:17,154 by the end even friendships that I lost 413 00:20:17,154 --> 00:20:19,380 ended up leaving the church Because by the 414 00:20:19,380 --> 00:20:23,950 end it was so evident there was so much 415 00:20:23,950 --> 00:20:26,434 documentation so many people had come 416 00:20:26,434 --> 00:20:29,878 forward that people It was very hard to 417 00:20:29,878 --> 00:20:32,342 deny that he was what I had initially 418 00:20:32,342 --> 00:20:34,294 experienced But because I was the first 419 00:20:34,294 --> 00:20:36,742 person and the most forward facing and a 420 00:20:36,742 --> 00:20:39,740 woman my experience was not taken as 421 00:20:39,740 --> 00:20:43,946 seriously as some of the other people.And 422 00:20:43,946 --> 00:20:46,074 that was really he And for the 423 00:20:46,074 --> 00:20:48,186 relationships that didn't end up being 424 00:20:48,186 --> 00:20:50,654 harmed through that process our church 425 00:20:50,654 --> 00:20:54,622 community blew up Even those of us who 426 00:20:54,622 --> 00:20:56,878 still text each other or stay in 427 00:20:56,878 --> 00:21:00,254 communication We're all scattered across 428 00:21:00,254 --> 00:21:04,526 the US now There's been a lot of hard 429 00:21:04,526 --> 00:21:06,722 things that people have lived through 430 00:21:06,722 --> 00:21:10,046 scary life things failures of 431 00:21:10,046 --> 00:21:11,762 relationships All those things have been 432 00:21:11,762 --> 00:21:14,066 lived without each other outside of this 433 00:21:14,066 --> 00:21:17,800 community that we built and poured into So 434 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,630 it's been really a That's definitely the 435 00:21:20,630 --> 00:21:24,760 hardest part to me Yeah I hear this over 436 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:29,290 and over again and I share that 437 00:21:29,290 --> 00:21:31,658 same.Assessment Of my own experience The 438 00:21:31,658 --> 00:21:34,502 people that you walk through so Much of 439 00:21:34,502 --> 00:21:38,522 life with spent so much time with That's 440 00:21:38,522 --> 00:21:41,886 lot of these church staffs are either full 441 00:21:41,886 --> 00:21:43,870 on burnout cultures Or close to it.And so 442 00:21:43,870 --> 00:21:51,406 you do spend a lot of time with the staff 443 00:21:51,406 --> 00:21:53,054 even with some of the volunteers in the 444 00:21:53,054 --> 00:21:54,386 church that you're asking basically to 445 00:21:54,386 --> 00:21:58,082 volunteer like 40 hours if they're weak 446 00:21:58,082 --> 00:21:59,502 sometimes around Christmas especially 447 00:21:59,502 --> 00:22:01,474 Right And so for it. to just suddenly be 448 00:22:01,474 --> 00:22:03,074 gone completely it's so traumatic It's 449 00:22:03,074 --> 00:22:06,278 such staff, shock And at a time in your 450 00:22:06,278 --> 00:22:08,470 life when you've walked through being 451 00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:10,754 church fired and you need that support 452 00:22:10,754 --> 00:22:14,806 that's the support you don't have at a 453 00:22:14,806 --> 00:22:19,426 time in your life when you really need 454 00:22:19,426 --> 00:22:22,026 it.And so it's such a cruel and unusual 455 00:22:22,026 --> 00:22:23,606 type of punishment And that also just not 456 00:22:23,606 --> 00:22:26,714 being able to really sort of defend 457 00:22:26,714 --> 00:22:28,966 oneself as somebody who's led in a 458 00:22:28,966 --> 00:22:30,394 spiritual way in a spiritual community and 459 00:22:30,394 --> 00:22:32,538 being framed as really witch or a jezebel 460 00:22:32,538 --> 00:22:35,230 or that kind of thing is something we've 461 00:22:35,230 --> 00:22:38,094 walked through So I know you're being 462 00:22:38,094 --> 00:22:41,614 therapy Thank God for good therapists Me 463 00:22:41,614 --> 00:22:44,206 too.I love my therapist and I would not 464 00:22:44,206 --> 00:22:47,506 have survived in the same way without the 465 00:22:47,506 --> 00:22:50,290 a that God a blessed me with But as you're 466 00:22:50,290 --> 00:22:52,446 walking through some of that how have you 467 00:22:52,446 --> 00:22:54,254 transformed in terms of your faith but 468 00:22:54,254 --> 00:22:56,814 especially your understanding of what it 469 00:22:56,814 --> 00:22:59,782 means to be a woman and a child of God and 470 00:22:59,782 --> 00:23:01,942 an image bearer of God How have those 471 00:23:01,942 --> 00:23:04,454 things changed for you're as you've walked 472 00:23:04,454 --> 00:23:07,526 through this aftermath That's a great 473 00:23:07,526 --> 00:23:12,246 question Also every time we can relate on 474 00:23:12,246 --> 00:23:15,706 so many parts of our to and I always just 475 00:23:15,706 --> 00:23:17,946 a my heart goes out to you so much because 476 00:23:17,946 --> 00:23:20,006 I'm like I've been there and it sucks so 477 00:23:20,006 --> 00:23:24,480 much.But as far as my a my therapist 478 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,726 actually asked time this last week She 479 00:23:27,726 --> 00:23:29,486 said where's your faith at right now A lot 480 00:23:29,486 --> 00:23:30,926 of times people will walk away from their 481 00:23:30,926 --> 00:23:32,846 faith completely when they've experienced 482 00:23:32,846 --> 00:23:34,450 religious abuse and religious trauma And 483 00:23:34,450 --> 00:23:41,906 for some reason I haven't say that very 484 00:23:41,906 --> 00:23:44,178 open handed I so starkly saw the 485 00:23:44,178 --> 00:23:46,614 difference between who I believed God was 486 00:23:46,614 --> 00:23:49,654 and who my pastor and those elders were 487 00:23:49,654 --> 00:23:52,706 portraying to be God.And faith was so 488 00:23:52,706 --> 00:23:59,802 evident to me that that was not who I 489 00:23:59,802 --> 00:24:04,410 believed in what I believed in that pretty 490 00:24:04,410 --> 00:24:10,702 much from the moment things started to 491 00:24:10,702 --> 00:24:16,122 devolve I knew this isn't God This is not 492 00:24:16,122 --> 00:24:20,126 what my faith is in.And I feel almost like 493 00:24:20,126 --> 00:24:22,814 I it do feel privileged to say that that 494 00:24:22,814 --> 00:24:24,626 was where I went immediately because I 495 00:24:24,626 --> 00:24:28,962 don't know how or why I did that but 496 00:24:28,962 --> 00:24:32,706 that's what I did I fully relate to and 497 00:24:32,706 --> 00:24:34,034 understand why someone wouldn't go there 498 00:24:34,034 --> 00:24:42,534 and would say it's very relatable when you 499 00:24:42,534 --> 00:24:45,158 start thinking about Donald Trump To me 500 00:24:45,158 --> 00:24:50,166 when you think about how the church in 501 00:24:50,166 --> 00:24:51,082 America western evangelicals really 502 00:24:51,082 --> 00:24:53,260 latched on to Donald Trump and said this 503 00:24:53,260 --> 00:24:57,930 is our guy This is who we're standing 504 00:24:57,930 --> 00:25:01,446 behind This is who God put in office.This 505 00:25:01,446 --> 00:25:03,502 is God's candidate And start lot of us 506 00:25:03,502 --> 00:25:04,830 started saying wait has anything you've 507 00:25:04,830 --> 00:25:10,298 ever said to me been true I'm having to 508 00:25:10,298 --> 00:25:12,654 have this moment where all of these people 509 00:25:12,654 --> 00:25:14,690 that I've respected and looked up to as 510 00:25:14,690 --> 00:25:17,266 giants of the faith now don't seem to care 511 00:25:17,266 --> 00:25:19,986 about integrity candidate. character don't 512 00:25:19,986 --> 00:25:24,286 seem to care about these things that I've 513 00:25:24,286 --> 00:25:26,454 been taught So what's real And I think 514 00:25:26,454 --> 00:25:29,862 that was the exact thing that I felt in 515 00:25:29,862 --> 00:25:31,686 the moment that things started falling 516 00:25:31,686 --> 00:25:35,266 apart with my boss because I even told 517 00:25:35,266 --> 00:25:38,386 them I'm okay.If I'm not a good fit then 518 00:25:38,386 --> 00:25:40,650 I'm not care good fit But that not what's 519 00:25:40,650 --> 00:25:45,226 going on right now This is abuse This is 520 00:25:45,226 --> 00:25:47,290 sin This is wrong.I also don't want to 521 00:25:47,290 --> 00:25:51,226 work for you but I'm also not okay with 522 00:25:51,226 --> 00:25:52,906 you pastoring people I love.My faith to 523 00:25:52,906 --> 00:25:54,378 some would probably look like it's not 524 00:25:54,378 --> 00:25:56,734 there And to me fit. feels more real than 525 00:25:56,734 --> 00:25:58,974 it's ever felt And I don't have better 526 00:25:58,974 --> 00:26:01,646 words for it than that I find an extreme 527 00:26:01,646 --> 00:26:04,674 amount of hope every single time I see 528 00:26:04,674 --> 00:26:10,114 someone who claims Jesus walk in integrity 529 00:26:10,114 --> 00:26:14,478 and choose at the cost of themselves to 530 00:26:14,478 --> 00:26:17,266 have integrity and to have character and 531 00:26:17,266 --> 00:26:20,674 to call for the church to be what the 532 00:26:20,674 --> 00:26:24,214 church is supposed to be and to expect 533 00:26:24,214 --> 00:26:26,198 that.Another way that I amount privileged 534 00:26:26,198 --> 00:26:29,514 is I get to see people choosing that and I 535 00:26:29,514 --> 00:26:34,954 get to hear the stories of people who have 536 00:26:34,954 --> 00:26:37,834 chosen it But that is one little sliver of 537 00:26:37,834 --> 00:26:41,886 the amazingness and a pie that is just 538 00:26:41,886 --> 00:26:43,534 total crap because these people lose 539 00:26:43,534 --> 00:26:50,158 everything We lose everything You guys 540 00:26:50,158 --> 00:26:52,142 have gone through it not to mention all of 541 00:26:52,142 --> 00:26:53,506 the things that, happen to you 542 00:26:53,506 --> 00:26:54,174 psychologically emotionally relationally 543 00:26:54,174 --> 00:26:57,554 and then financially And where do you go 544 00:26:57,554 --> 00:27:02,130 if you are in a church If you lose your 545 00:27:02,130 --> 00:27:06,210 job where do you go for help with bills 546 00:27:06,210 --> 00:27:08,694 You go to your church They usually are who 547 00:27:08,694 --> 00:27:11,286 help And those of us who are in these 548 00:27:11,286 --> 00:27:15,494 situations we lose that We have no income 549 00:27:15,494 --> 00:27:19,126 and no fallback.We have no support system 550 00:27:19,126 --> 00:27:20,326 whatsoever Yeah it sucks And you're 551 00:27:20,326 --> 00:27:21,626 absolutely right Even for getting a job 552 00:27:21,626 --> 00:27:24,458 going forward getting a reference I know 553 00:27:24,458 --> 00:27:27,418 that was a part of your story too There 554 00:27:27,418 --> 00:27:29,094 was the threat from pastor H that these 555 00:27:29,094 --> 00:27:32,910 was going to just put this on your 556 00:27:32,910 --> 00:27:35,134 permanent reference or whatever and 557 00:27:35,134 --> 00:27:41,306 therefore you can't go to people in your 558 00:27:41,306 --> 00:27:46,078 church and say hey can you give me a 559 00:27:46,078 --> 00:27:47,746 reference for a job Like networking in 560 00:27:47,746 --> 00:27:49,426 churches is part thing for the pastors out 561 00:27:49,426 --> 00:27:51,618 there who are saying people aren't in 562 00:27:51,618 --> 00:27:53,202 church to network for their jobs they are 563 00:27:53,202 --> 00:27:56,574 clearly not paying attention because that 564 00:27:56,574 --> 00:27:58,318 is a thing that people do and it's not 565 00:27:58,318 --> 00:27:59,158 necessarily wrong People hire who they 566 00:27:59,158 --> 00:28:01,106 know But for those who've been working 567 00:28:01,106 --> 00:28:04,886 networking a churches staff a if you're 568 00:28:04,886 --> 00:28:06,214 going pastors switch careers because 569 00:28:06,214 --> 00:28:07,766 suddenly you're being blacklisted by your 570 00:28:07,766 --> 00:28:10,454 to in ministry jobs and you realize you 571 00:28:10,454 --> 00:28:12,346 need to feed your family it would make 572 00:28:12,346 --> 00:28:14,922 sense to go to people in the congregation 573 00:28:14,922 --> 00:28:17,994 and be like they you've known me for a 574 00:28:17,994 --> 00:28:20,038 long time here's my skills Could I be 575 00:28:20,038 --> 00:28:23,334 helpful But none of us can do that because 576 00:28:23,334 --> 00:28:25,966 those stores are complicated now and also 577 00:28:25,966 --> 00:28:27,246 those people might have covered for our 578 00:28:27,246 --> 00:28:29,486 abuse or been complicit and all of that.It 579 00:28:29,486 --> 00:28:31,726 does bring to mind though when you were 580 00:28:31,726 --> 00:28:33,566 sharing about your faith and I do agree 581 00:28:33,566 --> 00:28:35,762 that there is a sacredness in the 582 00:28:35,762 --> 00:28:37,250 community of survivors that I haven't 583 00:28:37,250 --> 00:28:42,642 really experienced in other places and is 584 00:28:42,642 --> 00:28:44,366 really also beautiful space for me 585 00:28:44,366 --> 00:28:46,226 spiritually And I know or many of us all 586 00:28:46,226 --> 00:28:49,926 couple of things come to mind One is that 587 00:28:49,926 --> 00:28:51,814 you came and poured your heart into this 588 00:28:51,814 --> 00:28:53,714 Community by starting this podcast But 589 00:28:53,714 --> 00:28:55,238 also you had another round unfortunately 590 00:28:55,238 --> 00:28:57,206 of a very coming out of nowhere situation 591 00:28:57,206 --> 00:28:59,290 in the survivor community Not everyone has 592 00:28:59,290 --> 00:29:00,874 done the work to become wounded 593 00:29:00,874 --> 00:29:02,906 healers.Some are still wounded wounders 594 00:29:02,906 --> 00:29:04,394 And coming into this community of 595 00:29:04,394 --> 00:29:08,442 survivors and wanting to help you somehow 596 00:29:08,442 --> 00:29:10,206 got targeted by people who weren't 597 00:29:10,206 --> 00:29:15,230 themselves doing the work And so as you've 598 00:29:15,230 --> 00:29:19,818 walked through a what have you learned 599 00:29:19,818 --> 00:29:25,074 from that And who are you now because of 600 00:29:25,074 --> 00:29:29,714 Having walked through that too Oh gosh Wow 601 00:29:29,714 --> 00:29:33,842 You definitely hit the nail on the head 602 00:29:33,842 --> 00:29:36,422 with what that experience has been like 603 00:29:36,422 --> 00:29:41,014 for us and it's been wild to see again 604 00:29:41,014 --> 00:29:43,062 It's that same thing I told you've guys 605 00:29:43,062 --> 00:29:46,886 that I had thought that about the survivor 606 00:29:46,886 --> 00:29:48,394 community.Like we're all just together and 607 00:29:48,394 --> 00:29:51,962 we're fighting together and we're stronger 608 00:29:51,962 --> 00:29:57,046 together.But something that took me a very 609 00:29:57,046 --> 00:29:59,226 long time to realize is in almost every 610 00:29:59,226 --> 00:30:05,502 single one of the stories that we share on 611 00:30:05,502 --> 00:30:09,966 our podcast the pastors will vocally tell 612 00:30:09,966 --> 00:30:12,474 their life story of coming out of abuse 613 00:30:12,474 --> 00:30:14,226 coming about of really hard situations And 614 00:30:14,226 --> 00:30:17,454 I don't doubt them I actually believe it A 615 00:30:17,454 --> 00:30:22,994 lot of them have extreme father wounds a 616 00:30:22,994 --> 00:30:24,978 they're reenacting that on their 617 00:30:24,978 --> 00:30:26,838 congregations on their church staffs For 618 00:30:26,838 --> 00:30:29,190 some of you that are listening that aren't 619 00:30:29,190 --> 00:30:33,558 in a church you might notice that being 620 00:30:33,558 --> 00:30:36,342 something that happens in your boss or 621 00:30:36,342 --> 00:30:39,126 your lead on your team.And I think what 622 00:30:39,126 --> 00:30:40,986 has happened within the evangelical 623 00:30:40,986 --> 00:30:41,914 western evangelical survivor community is 624 00:30:41,914 --> 00:30:49,446 that so many of us come out and we aren't 625 00:30:49,446 --> 00:30:51,546 doing the work to heal And we're starting 626 00:30:51,546 --> 00:30:52,606 to reenact those traumas and those 627 00:30:52,606 --> 00:30:54,910 triggers onto each other and especially 628 00:30:54,910 --> 00:30:56,606 online where everything's that powder keg 629 00:30:56,606 --> 00:30:58,606 immediately and you're forced to choose 630 00:30:58,606 --> 00:31:01,726 sides immediately And I think in 631 00:31:01,726 --> 00:31:05,540 particular we are coming out of very rigid 632 00:31:05,540 --> 00:31:07,602 fundamentalist spaces Even if you think 633 00:31:07,602 --> 00:31:09,794 you're coming out of a more progressive 634 00:31:09,794 --> 00:31:13,886 religious space as western evangelicals 635 00:31:13,886 --> 00:31:16,374 we're taught to view things traumas black 636 00:31:16,374 --> 00:31:20,006 and white no matter what space you're 637 00:31:20,006 --> 00:31:24,806 online, even if you're in So I was in a 638 00:31:24,806 --> 00:31:28,010 more reformed buttoned up space.But even 639 00:31:28,010 --> 00:31:34,294 if you were to go to more of a pentecostal 640 00:31:34,294 --> 00:31:36,426 space there are also beliefs there that 641 00:31:36,426 --> 00:31:39,786 are very black a white And we're all 642 00:31:39,786 --> 00:31:42,186 coming together into this soup and we want 643 00:31:42,186 --> 00:31:44,186 everything to be black and white We want 644 00:31:44,186 --> 00:31:46,366 there to always be a villain and always be 645 00:31:46,366 --> 00:31:50,414 a good guy reformed, a victim And we 646 00:31:50,414 --> 00:31:52,566 aren't able to hold nuance And a part of a 647 00:31:52,566 --> 00:31:55,746 is because we were taught not to hold 648 00:31:55,746 --> 00:31:58,114 nuance.And I believe that's purposeful 649 00:31:58,114 --> 00:32:02,260 that the systems we're coming out of don't 650 00:32:02,260 --> 00:32:05,474 want us to understand nuance be it's much 651 00:32:05,474 --> 00:32:06,466 easier to control people that see 652 00:32:06,466 --> 00:32:09,478 everything a black and white This is good 653 00:32:09,478 --> 00:32:13,110 or bad a we don't ask questions.This is 654 00:32:13,110 --> 00:32:15,254 how it is But the survivor community is 655 00:32:15,254 --> 00:32:16,886 coming out of this religious context 656 00:32:16,886 --> 00:32:19,266 that's very fundamentalist And we are 657 00:32:19,266 --> 00:32:21,626 definitely playing that out on each other 658 00:32:21,626 --> 00:32:24,806 now outside of that and I don't think it 659 00:32:24,806 --> 00:32:28,026 has to be that way I think we can choose 660 00:32:28,026 --> 00:32:30,006 black better way and I think we can learn 661 00:32:30,006 --> 00:32:36,862 nuance But unless we as a full it start 662 00:32:36,862 --> 00:32:39,006 encouraging each other and expecting each 663 00:32:39,006 --> 00:32:42,766 other to grow in that it's just going to 664 00:32:42,766 --> 00:32:45,054 continue to be awful.But that experience 665 00:32:45,054 --> 00:32:48,866 in itself has been wildly painful and also 666 00:32:48,866 --> 00:32:49,906 definitely brought up things that still 667 00:32:49,906 --> 00:32:51,474 haven't healed in me In particular what 668 00:32:51,474 --> 00:32:54,242 I've been working on is my voice not being 669 00:32:54,242 --> 00:32:58,742 allowed anywhere It wasn't we in the 670 00:32:58,742 --> 00:33:03,942 church space that I came out of the church 671 00:33:03,942 --> 00:33:06,358 context it was not allowed even when I was 672 00:33:06,358 --> 00:33:10,714 at my most soft complimentarian in its 673 00:33:10,714 --> 00:33:16,166 full capacity And then I was told that my 674 00:33:16,166 --> 00:33:18,986 voice wasn't allowed in this space either 675 00:33:18,986 --> 00:33:22,686 So learning that my voice is okay like I 676 00:33:22,686 --> 00:33:27,130 can be myself and I can show up wasn't 677 00:33:27,130 --> 00:33:29,598 myself.Thrilled to have my friend Johnna 678 00:33:29,598 --> 00:33:33,346 Harris on today and I just Every time I 679 00:33:33,346 --> 00:33:37,362 hear her story or hear her tell parts of 680 00:33:37,362 --> 00:33:42,674 it I'm just so heartbroken that she went 681 00:33:42,674 --> 00:33:45,114 through the things that she went through 682 00:33:45,114 --> 00:33:49,558 because she's such space giving and loving 683 00:33:49,558 --> 00:33:52,934 person and an advocate for so many And 684 00:33:52,934 --> 00:33:54,326 it's heartbreaking to think about show she 685 00:33:54,326 --> 00:34:10,246 as so harmed in have space that should 686 00:34:10,246 --> 00:34:13,354 have been today, safe and sacred space for 687 00:34:13,354 --> 00:34:15,102 her where she felt both spiritually and 688 00:34:15,102 --> 00:34:16,814 psychologically and even relationally safe 689 00:34:16,814 --> 00:34:18,974 but where she absolutely did not And it's 690 00:34:18,974 --> 00:34:20,494 unfortunately not the only person we know 691 00:34:20,494 --> 00:34:23,106 of a has experienced something like what 692 00:34:23,106 --> 00:34:26,382 she's experienced and therefore in her own 693 00:34:26,382 --> 00:34:30,162 suffering She has allowed that to compel 694 00:34:30,162 --> 00:34:33,214 her to be a advocate for those of us out 695 00:34:33,214 --> 00:34:35,654 here who have experienced any type of 696 00:34:35,654 --> 00:34:38,294 abuse in a church or religious space.And 697 00:34:38,294 --> 00:34:43,910 so I wanted you to really have a chance to 698 00:34:43,910 --> 00:34:47,334 hear her own journey before we next 699 00:34:47,334 --> 00:34:49,226 episode dive into some more details of 700 00:34:49,226 --> 00:34:51,834 what she's experienced, after she walked 701 00:34:51,834 --> 00:34:54,982 through that type of abuse and what led 702 00:34:54,982 --> 00:34:58,074 her into both the journey she's been on in 703 00:34:58,074 --> 00:35:00,766 her podcasting journey as well as what 704 00:35:00,766 --> 00:35:03,230 it's been like in the survivor space where 705 00:35:03,230 --> 00:35:05,646 she has discovered some details about 706 00:35:05,646 --> 00:35:08,382 issues that she a wanted to advocate for 707 00:35:08,382 --> 00:35:12,542 more specifically And so in the next 708 00:35:12,542 --> 00:35:16,114 episode we go into much more detail about 709 00:35:16,114 --> 00:35:18,066 some of the things going on in the 710 00:35:18,066 --> 00:35:20,340 Southern Baptist convention what's causing 711 00:35:20,340 --> 00:35:23,294 her concern the calls to on that she's 712 00:35:23,294 --> 00:35:25,586 asking for those of us who want to see 713 00:35:25,586 --> 00:35:28,630 change happen and want to see survivors 714 00:35:28,630 --> 00:35:32,246 centered and listened to and for justice 715 00:35:32,246 --> 00:35:35,126 to really be done and for us to do that 716 00:35:35,126 --> 00:35:37,366 work together You'll get to hear in the 717 00:35:37,366 --> 00:35:38,930 next episode some of the things that she's 718 00:35:38,930 --> 00:35:41,594 concerned about and also what she's asking 719 00:35:41,594 --> 00:35:44,634 for us to come and join shoulder to 720 00:35:44,634 --> 00:35:48,138 shoulder to do in order to see change And 721 00:35:48,138 --> 00:35:51,206 yeah I really hope that you tune in for 722 00:35:51,206 --> 00:35:54,430 the next episode too because these two 723 00:35:54,430 --> 00:35:55,566 episodes together I think are really 724 00:35:55,566 --> 00:35:57,598 showing not only together. difference that 725 00:35:57,598 --> 00:35:59,326 she's making but what a difference it can 726 00:35:59,326 --> 00:36:05,786 make things our own lives when we learn to 727 00:36:05,786 --> 00:36:07,826 use our voice for good when we use our 728 00:36:07,826 --> 00:36:09,394 influence and our platform and our 729 00:36:09,394 --> 00:36:12,386 positions for good to advocate for others 730 00:36:12,386 --> 00:36:13,854 And she's a great example of that.And so 731 00:36:13,854 --> 00:36:16,994 was really happy to have her on today on 732 00:36:16,994 --> 00:36:19,142 the world of difference where she's 733 00:36:19,142 --> 00:36:20,966 bringing her differences around the table 734 00:36:20,966 --> 00:36:23,542 to make a difference and in the rest of us 735 00:36:23,542 --> 00:36:26,694 to join her So happy to be at the table 736 00:36:26,694 --> 00:36:30,502 with Johnna and happy for you to join us 737 00:36:30,502 --> 00:36:32,614 there too So tune in next episode where we 738 00:36:32,614 --> 00:36:34,314 go example little bit deeper on some of 739 00:36:34,314 --> 00:36:35,754 the things that she's been involved in and 740 00:36:35,754 --> 00:36:38,614 her calls to action for all of us In the 741 00:36:38,614 --> 00:36:40,314 meantime I hope you take care of yourself 742 00:36:40,314 --> 00:36:42,154 because all of you difference makers out 743 00:36:42,154 --> 00:36:43,366 there I know at sometimes you don't 744 00:36:43,366 --> 00:36:44,586 prioritize self care so do something nice 745 00:36:44,586 --> 00:36:46,234 for yourself today that feels good that 746 00:36:46,234 --> 00:36:48,078 makes you feel safe a and helps you feel 747 00:36:48,078 --> 00:36:49,342 comforted because I know that you're 748 00:36:49,342 --> 00:36:51,806 offering those in to her and so make sure 749 00:36:51,806 --> 00:36:54,174 you're loving and caring for yourself too 750 00:36:54,174 --> 00:36:56,142 in the midst of all this and join us next 751 00:36:56,142 --> 00:36:58,078 episode where we do part two with Johnna 752 00:36:58,078 --> 00:37:00,446 Harris Keep making a difference wherever 753 00:37:00,446 --> 00:37:01,742 you are undefined undefined undefined 754 00:37:01,742 --> 00:37:02,846 undefined undefined undefined undefined 755 00:37:02,846 --> 00:37:04,522 undefined undefined undefined undefined 756 00:37:04,522 --> 00:37:06,614 undefined undefined undefined undefined 757 00:37:06,614 --> 00:37:08,038 undefined undefined undefined undefined 758 00:37:08,038 --> 00:37:08,994 undefined undefined undefined undefined 759 00:37:08,994 --> 00:37:09,990 undefined undefined undefined undefined 760 00:37:09,990 --> 00:37:10,918 undefined undefined undefined undefined 761 00:37:10,918 --> 00:37:11,858 undefined undefined undefined undefined 762 00:37:11,858 --> 00:37:12,758 undefined undefined undefined undefined 763 00:37:12,758 --> 00:37:13,414 undefined undefined undefined undefined 764 00:37:13,414 --> 00:37:14,726 undefined undefined undefined undefined 765 00:37:14,726 --> 00:37:15,638 undefined undefined undefined undefined 766 00:37:15,638 --> 00:37:16,614 undefined undefined undefined undefined 767 00:37:16,614 --> 00:37:18,214 undefined undefined undefined undefined 768 00:37:18,214 --> 00:37:19,334 undefined undefined undefined undefined