Jemar Tisby and Doug Strong on Awakening to Justice: Rediscovering Abolitionists' Calls for Equality

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Welcome to the A World of Difference

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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is

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a podcast for those who are different and

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want to make a difference. Today we have a

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couple of authors on the show that have

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written an amazing book that is just being

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released, and the authors we're having on

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the show are Jamar Tisbee and Doug Stone.

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Jamar Tisby is the author of the New York

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Times bestselling book the Color of

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Compromise, which is about the truth about

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the american church's complicity and

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racism, which many of you have read. His

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writing has been featured on CNN, the

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Washington Post, the Atlantic, and the New

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York Times. He's recently featured in the

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documentary God and Country, and he's the

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founder and president of the Witness of

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Black Christian Collective and the co host

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of Pass the Mic podcast. He's a PhD

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candidate in history at the University of

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Mississippi, and Doug Stone is also one of

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the authors of this book that we're going

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to be featuring today, but he also teaches

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at both undergraduate and graduate courses

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in the School of Theology. His MDIV is

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from Princeton Theological Seminary and

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his PhD is also from Princeton Theological

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Seminary. Doug's field of study is

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american religious history, particularly

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the history of 19th century revivalism,

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social reform, and the Wesleyan Holiness

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movement in America. He's the past

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president of the Wesleyan Theological

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Society, a co convener of the history of

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Methodism, working group of the Oxford

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Institute of Methodist Theological

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Studies, and is on the steering committee

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of the Wesleyan Studies group of the

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American Academy of Religion. He's

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conducted several Wesley heritage study

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tours to England, and he's also led

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students on numerous trips to Russia. He

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has taught four times at the theological

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Seminary of the Russian Methodist Church

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and served on that school's board of

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trustees, and he also taught at two

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theological schools in Korea. He's very

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committed to intercultural learning as

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essential for students preparing to live

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out their christian vocation in a global

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society. Doctor Strong is also an ordained

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clergyman in the United Methodist Church

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and served for eight years as a pastor in

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east Brunswick, New Jersey. He's

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especially interested in reviving the

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wesleyan practice of small group,

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accountable discipleship among today's

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christians, and the book they're on

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talking about today is part of the

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dialogue on race and Faith project, and

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it's called awakening to justice, faithful

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voices from the abolitionist past. It's an

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intriguing book, the way that it starts

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off even, and it sort of grips you from

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the beginning about what this story is

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about. But we're going to get into it

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today with these two guys talking about

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this book, awakening to justice. So

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welcome to the show. Jamara Tisbee and

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Doug Stone. Hello, Jamar and Doug. A very

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warm welcome to the a World of Difference

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podcast to the both of you. Thanks for

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having us. Great to be with you, Lori. It

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is great. We're going to talk about some

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ways we can make a difference together

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today, but it's such an honor to have both

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of you on. And it was also so exciting for

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me to receive an advanced copy of this

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book. We're going to talk about today,

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awakening to justice, faithful voices from

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the abolitionist past. And I'm super

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excited to dig into this conversation with

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you today. But first off, if you could

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each just give a short little introduction

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to yourself. I know a lot of our listeners

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are going to already know who you are, but

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Jamar, why don't you just take the lead

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and tell us a little bit about who you are

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and your background and what brought you

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to this book. Hi, I am doctor Jamar Tisby.

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I'm a historian, an author, and a speaker.

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Folks may know my first book, the Color of

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Compromise, truth about the american

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church's complicity and racism. I'm also a

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professor of history at Simmons College of

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Kentucky, which is a faith based,

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christian, historically black college

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founded in 1879. Awesome. Doug, what about

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you? Yeah, hi, I'm Doug Strong. I'm a

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professor of the history of Christianity

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at Seattle Pacific University in Seattle.

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And prior to that, I was a pastor, and

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I've been a professor at other schools in

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Washington, DC and other places, and also

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was the founding dean of a seminary here

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at Seattle Pacific. So, yeah. And what

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brought me to this book is just my

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lifelong interest in questions of race and

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how that intersects with Christianity,

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especially. Awesome. Well, it's great to

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have both of you change makers and thought

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leaders in this conversation today. I know

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many of us around the world are seeing

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systems that are broken and have been

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broken for a long time, both in religious

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spheres and in government and just society

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in general. And so, coming from academia

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and religious spaces, we're really going

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to dig into some of this with your book

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today. I mean, as I was reading in just

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the beginning, I'm gripped. So I. This is

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not a true crime podcast, but that is the

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biggest genre in podcasting, if you didn't

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know that. And I recently was in LA, met

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speaking at a conference for podcasting

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and met some true crime podcasters. And I

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was reading the introduction to your book

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right after I got back from that

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conference. It sort of read a little bit

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like that, like opening a box. So I guess,

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you know, Doug, if you would take this

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first question, I think it said, in the

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fall of 2019, Noel Keller, the archivist

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at Adrian College, received this large box

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after staff members in the alumni office

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had found the dust filled container high

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up in a supply closet. And then something

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at the bottom of the box opened up this

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whole world of history that had been

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overlooked. So would you describe what she

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found and how it led you to write this

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book? Yeah, fine. I don't think it's

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murders in the building, but I will say

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it's a pretty exciting story. Yeah. This

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librarian was told that there was a box.

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People doing a remodeling of the first,

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oldest building of this small college in

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Michigan found a box, and they thought

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about maybe just throwing it out, and then

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said, well, let's contact the librarian.

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And the librarian went through it, and

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there were all sorts of artifacts. And she

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gets down to the bottom, and there's this

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notebook, and she doesn't know what it is.

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And so she contacts their resident

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chaplain, who's historian at the college.

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And he looks at it, and he can tell just

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by that these faded, yellowed pages with

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script, you know, manuscript writing, and

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then dates 1830, 918, 40, 1841. And he

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realizes this is a diary of somebody, and

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so he does some. This is Chris Mominy,

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who, the chaplain. He does some sleuthing,

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historical good, good historical research,

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and finds out that this is the diary of an

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abolitionist who was close friends and

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associates with Charles Finney, probably

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the best known christian revivalist of the

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19th century, kind of the Billy Graham of

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the 19th century. And so this puts us,

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this document then throws us back right

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into not only the 19th century, but into

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the personal life of somebody, because it

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was a diary. It was a journal. So it's his

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reflections, his recollections, his fears.

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He was a sickly man, and so he talks a lot

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about his health and then about his

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concern for oppressed African Americans.

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So it's quite a document. Yeah, it is.

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It's riveting just to read that at the

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beginning of the book and just, you know,

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piqued my curiosity to want to know more.

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Jamar, though I know you've written and

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spoken a great deal about race and faith,

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and your book, the color compromise,

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explored, really how white Christians,

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more often we're complicit or compromised

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with racism rather than confronting it

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here in the United States. And so can you

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provide sort of an overview of this book

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that you've written together with others

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and what inspired you to join and write in

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on this project. Absolutely. And if I can

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just chime in as a historian here. First

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of all, finding a journal like this is

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like it's the dream. You know, most times

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historians are in libraries. We're looking

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at archives, stuff that's already been

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collected and catalogued. But to find

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something out in the wild, so to speak,

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and then the. The precariousness of this

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find, because if the folks at the college

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hadn't had the wherewithal to say, this

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looks old, maybe there's something

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important, I'll pass it on to this person

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and then passing it on to Chris Mominee,

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who did then recognize the significance.

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So, folks, if you got stuff in your attic,

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your basement, the building at where you

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work, don't just toss it out. Try to do a

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little bit of digging and find out if

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there's something significant. Who knows?

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There might be a whole book there. So my

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involvement with this project is that

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story. Right. It's just a compelling

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story. And then when we dig into the lives

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of the people here, we find out these were

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not the folks who were compromising with

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racism or were complicit with slavery.

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These were the folks who were trying to

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confront it. And then layered on top of

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that, they're doing it within the context

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of their faith. And so often when we talk

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about or hear about Christianity, it's

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about christians behaving badly. And that

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rightly and appropriately, gets a lot of

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headlines, because we need to know about

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that. But there's another narrative, and I

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think that's what this book is really

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crafting, is saying that, yes, there has

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been all of this horrible stuff done in

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the name of Christianity, but also there's

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a different witness. There are people like

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the folks in this book and the scholars

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who assembled around it, who are really

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trying to do the right thing, to work for

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justice, to work for equality, not in

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spite of their. Of faith, but because of.

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So inspiring. Absolutely. And I know that

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you just are getting a standing ovation

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from people listening in the podcast

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community around the world, because we

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want those stories told, and they all need

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to be told, every part of it. Right?

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That's kind of why we have this podcast.

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There's a variety of perspectives. There's

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a part of history, and there's a part of

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the current reality of what it means to be

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human, that we're all a mixture of really

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good and really bad decisions. But some of

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our really bad decisions can really injure

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and harm people systemically for

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generations and generations. And so not

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all bad decisions are equally the same.

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And so being a part of bringing the change

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is so inspiring, gives us hope that even

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in our generation, we can see things. So,

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hey, Doug, I want to ask you this. As you

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were kind of involved in the project, how

261
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did you see some of the voices and stories

262
00:11:04,746 --> 00:11:07,162
of the abolitionists featured in the book

263
00:11:07,162 --> 00:11:08,770
resonate with sort of contemporary

264
00:11:08,770 --> 00:11:10,186
struggles for sort of this movement of

265
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justice and equality? Yeah, well, and

266
00:11:13,986 --> 00:11:16,730
Jamar's already brought this up. The story

267
00:11:16,730 --> 00:11:19,938
that has been told recently, which is a

268
00:11:19,938 --> 00:11:23,466
true one, sadly, is about complicity,

269
00:11:23,466 --> 00:11:26,538
especially white complicity with racism. I

270
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have a quote that we use in the book that

271
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I'm going to read. It's not that long, but

272
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I think it's important. It's by Howard

273
00:11:33,002 --> 00:11:36,946
Thurman, who was the mentor, really, of

274
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Martin Luther King. Not now, not as well

275
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known as king, but he was a pastor. He was

276
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a theologian and university administrator,

277
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but this is what he wrote in 1949. So

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really, just as the civil rights movement

279
00:11:55,928 --> 00:11:58,584
is starting to ramp up, he says, this is

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the question which individuals and groups

281
00:12:01,624 --> 00:12:04,720
who live in our land always under the

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threat of profound social and

283
00:12:07,696 --> 00:12:10,708
psychological displacement. So this is the

284
00:12:10,708 --> 00:12:13,116
question, why is it that Christianity

285
00:12:13,116 --> 00:12:16,300
seems impotent to deal radically and

286
00:12:16,300 --> 00:12:19,348
therefore effectively with the issues of

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00:12:19,348 --> 00:12:21,180
discrimination and injustice on the basis

288
00:12:21,180 --> 00:12:24,700
of race? Is this impotence due to a

289
00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:27,396
betrayal of the genius of the religion, or

290
00:12:27,396 --> 00:12:30,332
is it due to a basic weakness in the

291
00:12:30,332 --> 00:12:34,668
religion itself? That is a challenging

292
00:12:34,668 --> 00:12:38,074
question that every Christian who deals

293
00:12:38,074 --> 00:12:41,818
with the history of American Christianity

294
00:12:41,818 --> 00:12:44,234
has to deal with. We have to come to terms

295
00:12:44,234 --> 00:12:47,842
with that question. And I had to come to

296
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terms with that question throughout my

297
00:12:51,714 --> 00:12:54,334
whole life as a Christian who is a

298
00:12:54,334 --> 00:12:57,130
historian. But it's not just in history.

299
00:12:57,130 --> 00:12:59,774
It's still true. Right. It's still true

300
00:12:59,774 --> 00:13:03,234
today. As we see the effects of racism

301
00:13:03,234 --> 00:13:05,414
continuing. We're not in a post racial

302
00:13:05,414 --> 00:13:09,104
society. We still see the effects of that

303
00:13:09,104 --> 00:13:11,480
over and over. White supremacy still

304
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,928
continues. And so that question is one

305
00:13:14,928 --> 00:13:17,720
that we have to wrestle with. Well, that's

306
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,592
why I love the folks in this book. These

307
00:13:21,592 --> 00:13:23,364
abolitionists were wrestling with the same

308
00:13:23,364 --> 00:13:26,328
question, and they answered the question

309
00:13:26,328 --> 00:13:29,344
that it is a bit that the problem of white

310
00:13:29,344 --> 00:13:33,980
supremacy and racism is a betrayal of the

311
00:13:33,980 --> 00:13:36,364
genius of Christianity. That was their

312
00:13:36,364 --> 00:13:38,148
answer. And those of us that worked on

313
00:13:38,148 --> 00:13:41,196
this book agree with that, that it's. That

314
00:13:41,196 --> 00:13:44,492
the essence of what Christianity is should

315
00:13:44,492 --> 00:13:49,984
not be how it manifests itself in white

316
00:13:49,984 --> 00:13:56,836
racism. So true. Yeah. And I think that

317
00:13:56,836 --> 00:13:58,636
we've had several historians on the

318
00:13:58,636 --> 00:14:01,466
podcast. We love historians here we had

319
00:14:01,466 --> 00:14:03,426
Doctor Beth Allison Barr when her book

320
00:14:03,426 --> 00:14:04,874
making a vocal woman, had the day it

321
00:14:04,874 --> 00:14:06,226
released. Actually, we had a pre release

322
00:14:06,226 --> 00:14:09,978
copy, and then I had Kristen Covez Dumayon

323
00:14:09,978 --> 00:14:11,458
early on in the Jesus and John Wayne when

324
00:14:11,458 --> 00:14:14,450
it had just released. And the thing about

325
00:14:14,450 --> 00:14:17,314
history is we don't want to repeat it, and

326
00:14:17,314 --> 00:14:19,010
that's why we learn it, and it's why it's

327
00:14:19,010 --> 00:14:21,250
so important. And so, Jamar, my question

328
00:14:21,250 --> 00:14:24,418
for you now is, as you have been studying

329
00:14:24,418 --> 00:14:27,190
this history, what are some key lessons or

330
00:14:27,190 --> 00:14:29,798
insights that those of us who are modern

331
00:14:29,798 --> 00:14:31,950
activists and advocates can learn from the

332
00:14:31,950 --> 00:14:33,542
strategies and tactics employed by

333
00:14:33,542 --> 00:14:36,630
historical abolitionists? I love that

334
00:14:36,630 --> 00:14:39,030
question. It's the how to question, which

335
00:14:39,030 --> 00:14:41,438
we all want to ask. My second book is

336
00:14:41,438 --> 00:14:44,814
called how to fight racism, and that was

337
00:14:44,814 --> 00:14:47,718
also another interest point in this book

338
00:14:47,718 --> 00:14:49,574
as scholars. And there were over a dozen

339
00:14:49,574 --> 00:14:52,718
of us who were from different

340
00:14:52,718 --> 00:14:54,554
denominations, different geographic

341
00:14:54,554 --> 00:14:58,442
locations, ages, experiences, you name it.

342
00:14:58,442 --> 00:15:02,250
When we came around and assembled around

343
00:15:02,250 --> 00:15:04,378
this journal, around the history that it

344
00:15:04,378 --> 00:15:07,410
told, very quickly, the conversation

345
00:15:07,410 --> 00:15:10,418
turned from the past to the present. What

346
00:15:10,418 --> 00:15:13,194
can we learn from the past that we can

347
00:15:13,194 --> 00:15:16,378
apply to the present? There are a lot of

348
00:15:16,378 --> 00:15:18,858
specifics, but I'll speak in general.

349
00:15:18,858 --> 00:15:22,626
Principles. Number one, don't give up on

350
00:15:22,626 --> 00:15:26,452
interracial solidarity and cooperation.

351
00:15:26,452 --> 00:15:28,964
And I say this as someone who's been very

352
00:15:28,964 --> 00:15:32,092
much burned by predominantly white

353
00:15:32,092 --> 00:15:35,276
churches and faith communities. At the

354
00:15:35,276 --> 00:15:40,148
same time, there is a very powerful

355
00:15:40,148 --> 00:15:43,500
witness in and of itself of people coming

356
00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:46,700
together across their differences to

357
00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:49,484
pursue a common goal. And I think that's

358
00:15:49,484 --> 00:15:52,220
the difference. I think that what we saw

359
00:15:52,220 --> 00:15:54,380
in Ingram's journal and the constellation

360
00:15:54,380 --> 00:15:57,704
of folks that he worked with was they were

361
00:15:57,704 --> 00:16:01,588
united not simply to be diverse and say,

362
00:16:01,588 --> 00:16:03,864
hey, this will make a nice brochure

363
00:16:03,864 --> 00:16:07,172
picture. They were united in pursuit of a

364
00:16:07,172 --> 00:16:10,092
goal, in this case, abolition. So what

365
00:16:10,092 --> 00:16:13,172
does that mean for us today? Do we have

366
00:16:13,172 --> 00:16:16,252
clear goals when it comes to justice? What

367
00:16:16,252 --> 00:16:18,324
are we working toward? What are we working

368
00:16:18,324 --> 00:16:22,100
to change? And in pursuit of that? How can

369
00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:24,892
we bring communities together across

370
00:16:24,892 --> 00:16:26,340
differences in pursuit of that common

371
00:16:26,340 --> 00:16:28,620
goal, but make the goal that the focus,

372
00:16:28,620 --> 00:16:32,212
and not simply diversity the focus? I

373
00:16:32,212 --> 00:16:36,464
think another lesson we can learn here is

374
00:16:36,464 --> 00:16:41,964
to document our work. If Ingram hadn't

375
00:16:41,964 --> 00:16:44,368
written this journal, we might never have

376
00:16:44,368 --> 00:16:48,488
known of his existence, let alone the

377
00:16:48,488 --> 00:16:51,872
abolitionist endeavors he and others were

378
00:16:51,872 --> 00:16:56,544
taking part in. And so we need to think in

379
00:16:56,544 --> 00:17:00,840
the present, historically. In other words,

380
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:02,960
we need to think about the legacy that

381
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,680
we're leaving for others to find one day

382
00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,764
when our work is part of history. So that

383
00:17:08,764 --> 00:17:12,594
means having a personal journal. That

384
00:17:12,594 --> 00:17:16,398
means documenting online, through

385
00:17:16,398 --> 00:17:18,686
articles, through blogs, and now we have

386
00:17:18,686 --> 00:17:22,438
the advantage of video and making videos,

387
00:17:22,438 --> 00:17:25,110
and we don't need, you know, a Hollywood

388
00:17:25,110 --> 00:17:28,494
camera crew. We have cameras on our

389
00:17:28,494 --> 00:17:31,846
phones, many of us. And so it really is

390
00:17:31,846 --> 00:17:35,502
important that we document what we're

391
00:17:35,502 --> 00:17:38,102
doing for posterity with the idea that

392
00:17:38,102 --> 00:17:39,910
others might find it. And then lastly, I

393
00:17:39,910 --> 00:17:46,054
would say there is an ongoing need to

394
00:17:46,054 --> 00:17:51,978
apply the historic truths of the Bible, of

395
00:17:51,978 --> 00:17:55,014
scripture, of holy text, to the present

396
00:17:55,014 --> 00:17:59,054
day. In other words, there is space and a

397
00:17:59,054 --> 00:18:03,234
need to continue to do theology and apply

398
00:18:03,234 --> 00:18:06,714
it to justice issues today. So there are

399
00:18:06,714 --> 00:18:09,146
budding theologians out there who will

400
00:18:09,146 --> 00:18:11,610
take a formal academic route in college

401
00:18:11,610 --> 00:18:14,034
and seminary and graduate school. But

402
00:18:14,034 --> 00:18:16,614
there are folks who are living their

403
00:18:16,614 --> 00:18:19,906
theology. They are doing good work to make

404
00:18:19,906 --> 00:18:22,450
the world a better place because of what

405
00:18:22,450 --> 00:18:26,386
they believe and document that. How do you

406
00:18:26,386 --> 00:18:29,698
get to your work in the world? From your

407
00:18:29,698 --> 00:18:32,602
beliefs about the eternal or the

408
00:18:32,602 --> 00:18:35,442
transcendent? Make that transparent and

409
00:18:35,442 --> 00:18:38,946
help others connect the dots, so to speak,

410
00:18:38,946 --> 00:18:41,094
so that their faith can be put into

411
00:18:41,094 --> 00:18:46,748
action. Love that. That's so great. And we

412
00:18:46,748 --> 00:18:49,396
do want our children, our grandchildren,

413
00:18:49,396 --> 00:18:51,308
our great grandchildren, to not make the

414
00:18:51,308 --> 00:18:53,548
same mistakes we did, but we also want to

415
00:18:53,548 --> 00:18:56,780
pass our wisdom on. And I would add

416
00:18:56,780 --> 00:18:58,980
podcasting to that list. Yes. As a way to

417
00:18:58,980 --> 00:19:03,188
document what's going on. So, Doug, I'm

418
00:19:03,188 --> 00:19:05,004
wondering, in your research, as you were

419
00:19:05,004 --> 00:19:06,388
collaborating on this book, did you

420
00:19:06,388 --> 00:19:08,588
uncover any lesser known figures or

421
00:19:08,588 --> 00:19:10,132
narratives from the abolitionist movement

422
00:19:10,132 --> 00:19:12,744
that you believe deserve a little more

423
00:19:12,744 --> 00:19:15,494
recognition? Yeah. Well, thanks. That's an

424
00:19:15,494 --> 00:19:17,710
excellent question. Well, Ingram himself,

425
00:19:17,710 --> 00:19:21,478
the guy whose journal we found was really

426
00:19:21,478 --> 00:19:25,918
basically unknown, he was unfortunate

427
00:19:25,918 --> 00:19:31,406
because he played a key role not only at

428
00:19:31,406 --> 00:19:34,166
Oberlin College, which was the first

429
00:19:34,166 --> 00:19:36,502
racially integrated college in the United

430
00:19:36,502 --> 00:19:39,558
States, and also, by the way, the first to

431
00:19:39,558 --> 00:19:42,594
educate women along with men at an equal

432
00:19:42,594 --> 00:19:45,570
level. And so he was an. And a christian

433
00:19:45,570 --> 00:19:47,674
institution, very clearly a faith based

434
00:19:47,674 --> 00:19:49,810
institution. So he had a key role there.

435
00:19:49,810 --> 00:19:54,130
But he also, he and his wife were the very

436
00:19:54,130 --> 00:19:58,170
first missionaries sent by Oberlin to

437
00:19:58,170 --> 00:20:01,314
Jamaica to work with emancipated slaves.

438
00:20:01,314 --> 00:20:05,954
So the british empire freed enslaved

439
00:20:05,954 --> 00:20:08,002
people 30 years before the United States.

440
00:20:08,002 --> 00:20:10,964
And it really, they did so, though, in a

441
00:20:10,964 --> 00:20:14,108
poor way, because they did not really give

442
00:20:14,108 --> 00:20:17,572
full freedom. But it was very important

443
00:20:17,572 --> 00:20:20,708
for recently emancipated people to receive

444
00:20:20,708 --> 00:20:22,764
education, but the government wasn't

445
00:20:22,764 --> 00:20:25,172
providing any of that. And so Ingraham

446
00:20:25,172 --> 00:20:30,140
went to help establish schools with these

447
00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:33,228
recently emancipated people. Now, what's

448
00:20:33,228 --> 00:20:36,236
cool about Ingraham is he then recruits an

449
00:20:36,236 --> 00:20:39,292
African American, a free black from

450
00:20:39,292 --> 00:20:42,452
Boston, Nancy Prince, to go with him,

451
00:20:42,452 --> 00:20:45,580
because he realizes that as a white man,

452
00:20:45,580 --> 00:20:47,868
he's probably not going to be very

453
00:20:47,868 --> 00:20:50,516
effective in educating black Jamaicans.

454
00:20:50,516 --> 00:20:53,076
And so he recruits an African American, so

455
00:20:53,076 --> 00:20:55,796
she becomes part of the story. And then

456
00:20:55,796 --> 00:20:59,060
also one of Ingraham's colleagues at

457
00:20:59,060 --> 00:21:01,464
Oberlin and then previously at another

458
00:21:01,464 --> 00:21:05,324
school, was James Bradley, another African

459
00:21:05,324 --> 00:21:08,016
American who had been enslaved and then

460
00:21:08,016 --> 00:21:10,536
freed, and freed himself, actually, by

461
00:21:10,536 --> 00:21:12,992
purchasing his own freedom through

462
00:21:12,992 --> 00:21:16,568
incredibly strenuous work. And so we have

463
00:21:16,568 --> 00:21:20,360
this cadre of people, black and white, and

464
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:22,136
that's the abolitionist movement. That's

465
00:21:22,136 --> 00:21:24,920
why it's so interesting to me and

466
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,848
exciting, because it's a collaborative,

467
00:21:27,848 --> 00:21:31,064
interracial movement of people working, as

468
00:21:31,064 --> 00:21:34,328
Jamar said, toward a goal not only just

469
00:21:34,328 --> 00:21:36,318
freeing slaves, by the way, although that

470
00:21:36,318 --> 00:21:41,126
was key, but also making sure that freed

471
00:21:41,126 --> 00:21:45,238
African Americans in the north also had

472
00:21:45,238 --> 00:21:50,238
full liberties and full rights. And so

473
00:21:50,238 --> 00:21:53,598
that kind of those specific goals in this

474
00:21:53,598 --> 00:21:55,398
interracial, collaborative community, to

475
00:21:55,398 --> 00:21:58,262
me, that's what we uncovered. And, of

476
00:21:58,262 --> 00:22:00,750
course, people knew about that. But these

477
00:22:00,750 --> 00:22:04,320
are some new voices that hadn't been

478
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,576
really heard from before. And I think

479
00:22:07,576 --> 00:22:13,448
what's powerful about this? David Ingram

480
00:22:13,448 --> 00:22:17,600
Bradley, Nancy Prince. I read somewhere

481
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,264
about principles of screenwriting for

482
00:22:20,264 --> 00:22:24,504
movies and things of that nature. And a

483
00:22:24,504 --> 00:22:27,842
filmmaker said, if you're telling a big

484
00:22:27,842 --> 00:22:30,750
story, don't tell the big story. Tell the

485
00:22:30,750 --> 00:22:34,542
small story within the big story. Tell the

486
00:22:34,542 --> 00:22:36,254
small story within the big story. And I

487
00:22:36,254 --> 00:22:38,598
think that's what's happening in this

488
00:22:38,598 --> 00:22:41,542
book, awakening to justice, is that we

489
00:22:41,542 --> 00:22:45,234
find these mainly three historical

490
00:22:45,234 --> 00:22:49,198
figures, and they are the small story

491
00:22:49,198 --> 00:22:52,150
embedded in the much larger story of

492
00:22:52,150 --> 00:22:55,678
abolition. What you do with people who are

493
00:22:55,678 --> 00:22:57,422
emancipated, what does freedom truly mean?

494
00:22:57,422 --> 00:22:59,470
How do you support that freedom? That's a

495
00:22:59,470 --> 00:23:01,790
big, big story. And the other part I love

496
00:23:01,790 --> 00:23:04,274
about this story is the international

497
00:23:04,274 --> 00:23:06,614
scope. We're in the Caribbean. We're in

498
00:23:06,614 --> 00:23:09,294
Jamaica, not just the United States. And

499
00:23:09,294 --> 00:23:11,766
that really is the story of slavery, too.

500
00:23:11,766 --> 00:23:15,190
It's an entire atlantic world, not just

501
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:19,254
what became the United States. And so that

502
00:23:19,254 --> 00:23:21,894
adds another layer of complexity and

503
00:23:21,894 --> 00:23:24,046
bigness to this story. So how do you begin

504
00:23:24,046 --> 00:23:26,012
to wrap your head around that? Well, it's

505
00:23:26,012 --> 00:23:27,980
not by trying to tell the whole thing.

506
00:23:27,980 --> 00:23:31,028
It's by zooming in on the experiences of

507
00:23:31,028 --> 00:23:34,972
these folks, on the literal daily journal

508
00:23:34,972 --> 00:23:39,852
entries, the handwriting, the thoughts,

509
00:23:39,852 --> 00:23:43,620
the prayers of this person. Really

510
00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:49,428
intimate, micro fine grained detail that

511
00:23:49,428 --> 00:23:52,164
ironically and sort of counterintuitively

512
00:23:52,164 --> 00:23:54,332
help us understand a much bigger picture

513
00:23:54,332 --> 00:23:57,860
and a much bigger story. And that help us,

514
00:23:57,860 --> 00:24:00,364
Jamar, I would say to help us to know that

515
00:24:00,364 --> 00:24:03,908
these were real people, just like we are

516
00:24:03,908 --> 00:24:09,356
people who had struggles with daily tasks

517
00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:14,372
or illness or family issues. Right. And

518
00:24:14,372 --> 00:24:16,596
so, as they're dealing with the big issues

519
00:24:16,596 --> 00:24:20,940
around them, then we can identify another

520
00:24:20,940 --> 00:24:23,940
direct connection between 200 years ago

521
00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:26,966
and today because, you know, they're

522
00:24:26,966 --> 00:24:30,310
people with the struggles that we have. I

523
00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:32,926
love that position because I think the

524
00:24:32,926 --> 00:24:35,342
power of the small story is reminding us

525
00:24:35,342 --> 00:24:37,918
of the humanity of the people in there.

526
00:24:37,918 --> 00:24:40,470
And so often in this justice work,

527
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:43,574
especially racial justice, people have, in

528
00:24:43,574 --> 00:24:46,150
so many words, expressed the idea of, who

529
00:24:46,150 --> 00:24:48,366
am I? You know, I don't have any power.

530
00:24:48,366 --> 00:24:49,742
There's nothing special about me. I don't

531
00:24:49,742 --> 00:24:52,656
have any special skills. Possible part

532
00:24:52,656 --> 00:24:56,304
could I play in such a big issue like

533
00:24:56,304 --> 00:24:59,288
abolition or fighting racism today? And

534
00:24:59,288 --> 00:25:01,664
these stories, these journal entries in

535
00:25:01,664 --> 00:25:03,728
particular remind us, like, hey, it's

536
00:25:03,728 --> 00:25:06,616
normal folks. It's everyday folks just

537
00:25:06,616 --> 00:25:08,764
like you and me, who can make a big

538
00:25:08,764 --> 00:25:11,888
difference. I feel like you just gave the

539
00:25:11,888 --> 00:25:14,204
tagline from my podcast. Thank you there,

540
00:25:14,204 --> 00:25:17,424
Jamar. Yes. I mean, it is this collective

541
00:25:17,424 --> 00:25:20,780
effort. It's this massive global situation

542
00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:22,740
that's gone on for years with a lot of

543
00:25:22,740 --> 00:25:26,236
nuance, depending on who was colonizing,

544
00:25:26,236 --> 00:25:29,284
who was enslaving who. And, you know,

545
00:25:29,284 --> 00:25:31,684
like, when I lived. I lived both in

546
00:25:31,684 --> 00:25:33,492
Indonesia and in northern South America.

547
00:25:33,492 --> 00:25:35,700
And there were some connections. There

548
00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:37,876
were Dutch colonized Indonesians, and

549
00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:39,804
there were people brought from Indonesia

550
00:25:39,804 --> 00:25:42,836
by ship to northern South America to, you

551
00:25:42,836 --> 00:25:44,316
know, countries that were east of

552
00:25:44,316 --> 00:25:46,236
Venezuela, where I grew up. And. And

553
00:25:46,236 --> 00:25:49,016
there's a lot of nuance around how places

554
00:25:49,016 --> 00:25:51,504
got, you know, emancipated, enslaved

555
00:25:51,504 --> 00:25:55,088
people. So I was in Rio in November and

556
00:25:55,088 --> 00:25:56,760
talking with some. A friend there who

557
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,200
lives in Copacabana, and she was, you

558
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,952
know, talking about how when Brazil

559
00:26:01,952 --> 00:26:03,384
emancipated, it was like, it's just a

560
00:26:03,384 --> 00:26:04,872
document. I think it was like, Princess

561
00:26:04,872 --> 00:26:06,000
Isabella or somebody just wrote this

562
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,720
thing, and it's like, wow, you live in a

563
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,784
nation that literally fought a war over

564
00:26:09,784 --> 00:26:12,496
this and other places, just signed a

565
00:26:12,496 --> 00:26:14,816
document. So the nuance of, was it Dutch,

566
00:26:14,816 --> 00:26:16,920
was it portuguese? Was it british? Where

567
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,824
was it in the world who was enslaved? It

568
00:26:19,824 --> 00:26:23,104
can feel so overwhelming. But I love what

569
00:26:23,104 --> 00:26:25,440
you're saying, that every one person

570
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,760
joined in a collective effort, shoulder to

571
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,408
shoulder with others, is how we make a

572
00:26:30,408 --> 00:26:32,176
difference. And I do want to bring in the

573
00:26:32,176 --> 00:26:33,840
faith element, because this is sort of

574
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,184
your expertise, Jamar. You wrote this

575
00:26:36,184 --> 00:26:38,552
amazing book, the color of compromise, and

576
00:26:38,552 --> 00:26:40,624
I would love for you to sort of help us

577
00:26:40,624 --> 00:26:42,712
understand how faith intersects with the

578
00:26:42,712 --> 00:26:44,656
pursuit of justice in these narratives of

579
00:26:44,656 --> 00:26:47,924
the abolitionists. That you've studied,

580
00:26:47,924 --> 00:26:50,796
whether you're looking at abolitionism, or

581
00:26:50,796 --> 00:26:55,036
even the US civil war. A lot of the people

582
00:26:55,036 --> 00:26:57,428
who were fighting for black emancipation,

583
00:26:57,428 --> 00:27:00,444
full rights, full inclusion, went back to

584
00:27:00,444 --> 00:27:03,264
what we commonly refer to as the golden

585
00:27:03,264 --> 00:27:06,784
rule. Treat others the way you want to be

586
00:27:06,784 --> 00:27:09,652
treated, or the way Jesus said it, love

587
00:27:09,652 --> 00:27:11,044
the Lord your God with all your heart,

588
00:27:11,044 --> 00:27:13,338
soul, mind, and strength, and love your

589
00:27:13,338 --> 00:27:17,002
neighbor as yourself. So they were

590
00:27:17,002 --> 00:27:20,666
applying a very simple but profound, and I

591
00:27:20,666 --> 00:27:23,122
would say universal. You can sort of find

592
00:27:23,122 --> 00:27:27,202
this principle in any religion of treating

593
00:27:27,202 --> 00:27:29,074
others how you want to be treated. They

594
00:27:29,074 --> 00:27:31,706
were applying that not just on an

595
00:27:31,706 --> 00:27:34,890
individual, interpersonal level, but on a

596
00:27:34,890 --> 00:27:37,146
societal, structural, institutional level,

597
00:27:37,146 --> 00:27:39,894
which I think is the part a lot of people

598
00:27:39,894 --> 00:27:43,886
struggle with. It's not a strange concept

599
00:27:43,886 --> 00:27:46,198
for a lot of people that we should be

600
00:27:46,198 --> 00:27:48,934
nice, that we should be kind to others

601
00:27:48,934 --> 00:27:50,838
around us. I mean, I hope that's not a

602
00:27:50,838 --> 00:27:53,718
strange concept, right? I think it is a

603
00:27:53,718 --> 00:27:55,718
bit more of a challenge for folks when

604
00:27:55,718 --> 00:27:57,918
we're thinking about these larger issues

605
00:27:57,918 --> 00:28:00,590
of race, of class, of gender, and applying

606
00:28:00,590 --> 00:28:02,478
that same principle, because it gets very

607
00:28:02,478 --> 00:28:04,638
complicated very quickly. Right? You were

608
00:28:04,638 --> 00:28:07,126
naming some of the nuances and differences

609
00:28:07,126 --> 00:28:09,230
between who was colonizing who and when

610
00:28:09,230 --> 00:28:12,284
and how things happened. Well, that

611
00:28:12,284 --> 00:28:15,612
happens even just on a single nation

612
00:28:15,612 --> 00:28:17,228
level. If you think about the size of a

613
00:28:17,228 --> 00:28:19,708
country like the United States, with 50

614
00:28:19,708 --> 00:28:22,404
different states, a massive geography, and

615
00:28:22,404 --> 00:28:24,492
many, many different cultures, and a

616
00:28:24,492 --> 00:28:27,548
nation in many ways of immigrants. Right?

617
00:28:27,548 --> 00:28:31,172
So the complexity ramps up real, real

618
00:28:31,172 --> 00:28:36,044
quickly. But I think the theological, the

619
00:28:36,044 --> 00:28:38,198
christian principle of loving your

620
00:28:38,198 --> 00:28:41,766
neighbor as yourself is still applicable

621
00:28:41,766 --> 00:28:44,558
in that situation. And what it forces us

622
00:28:44,558 --> 00:28:49,078
to do is to try to perceive the world from

623
00:28:49,078 --> 00:28:51,078
another person's perspective, which is

624
00:28:51,078 --> 00:28:53,190
what a world of difference podcast is all

625
00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:57,654
about. Right? So I think in some ways, the

626
00:28:57,654 --> 00:29:02,310
whole theme of this show is putting that

627
00:29:02,310 --> 00:29:06,574
theology into action and saying, I know my

628
00:29:06,574 --> 00:29:09,054
life and I experience things from my

629
00:29:09,054 --> 00:29:11,046
perspective. And so I can see, you know,

630
00:29:11,046 --> 00:29:13,190
different struggles and different

631
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:15,878
privileges I have. But if I really try to

632
00:29:15,878 --> 00:29:18,414
get inside someone else's position,

633
00:29:18,414 --> 00:29:21,062
someone else's point of view, then, number

634
00:29:21,062 --> 00:29:23,102
one, I can't do that unless I have some

635
00:29:23,102 --> 00:29:26,054
sort of proximity. I call it priestly

636
00:29:26,054 --> 00:29:29,390
proximity. You know, a pastor, in the best

637
00:29:29,390 --> 00:29:31,910
sense of the word, is close to the people

638
00:29:31,910 --> 00:29:34,556
they serve, and then they know their

639
00:29:34,556 --> 00:29:37,092
needs, right, and can minister to those

640
00:29:37,092 --> 00:29:39,700
needs in the same way. We need to get

641
00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:42,452
proximate, as Bryan Stevenson of the equal

642
00:29:42,452 --> 00:29:43,748
Justice Initiative would say, we need to

643
00:29:43,748 --> 00:29:47,068
get proximate with people who are on the

644
00:29:47,068 --> 00:29:49,564
margins and suffering. And when we do

645
00:29:49,564 --> 00:29:51,684
that, we have a better sense of what

646
00:29:51,684 --> 00:29:53,260
they're struggling with. And then we can

647
00:29:53,260 --> 00:29:55,828
come alongside and love our neighbor

648
00:29:55,828 --> 00:29:58,568
through actions, and not just through

649
00:29:58,568 --> 00:30:04,680
words or thoughts and prayers. Hash

650
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:05,656
thoughtsandprayers. We're winning a little

651
00:30:05,656 --> 00:30:07,336
more than that, aren't we? It's kind of.

652
00:30:07,336 --> 00:30:10,976
If you're. If you know, you know, Doug,

653
00:30:10,976 --> 00:30:13,288
I'd love for you to answer this for us.

654
00:30:13,288 --> 00:30:15,528
What. What role did faith communities play

655
00:30:15,528 --> 00:30:17,600
in the abolition movement, from your

656
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,784
perspective? And how do you see religious

657
00:30:19,784 --> 00:30:21,800
institutions engaging in social justice

658
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:27,082
issues today? Yeah, abolitionism really

659
00:30:27,082 --> 00:30:30,754
cannot be understood. Us abolitionism, or

660
00:30:30,754 --> 00:30:33,066
british, for that matter, without the

661
00:30:33,066 --> 00:30:36,274
faith perspective, really. Those people

662
00:30:36,274 --> 00:30:42,186
who were most central to abolition either

663
00:30:42,186 --> 00:30:45,290
came from religious backgrounds or

664
00:30:45,290 --> 00:30:49,938
themselves were formed, based. Their

665
00:30:49,938 --> 00:30:51,810
foundation was in a theological

666
00:30:51,810 --> 00:30:53,906
perspective. Jamaras mentioned one of the

667
00:30:53,906 --> 00:30:56,554
ideas, which is this concept of the golden

668
00:30:56,554 --> 00:30:58,802
rule. There's also the idea that all

669
00:30:58,802 --> 00:31:00,962
people are created in God's image. It's

670
00:31:00,962 --> 00:31:03,914
something that is very central. They

671
00:31:03,914 --> 00:31:08,274
repeat this constantly. There's a verse in

672
00:31:08,274 --> 00:31:11,722
acts that says, all humanity is made of

673
00:31:11,722 --> 00:31:14,922
one blood, and this sense that we're all

674
00:31:14,922 --> 00:31:17,546
together in this. There's the story in the

675
00:31:17,546 --> 00:31:21,714
book of revelation where it says that all

676
00:31:21,714 --> 00:31:24,254
tribes and peoples and nations will come

677
00:31:24,254 --> 00:31:28,274
together at the end of time. So all of

678
00:31:28,274 --> 00:31:31,466
these theological concepts were central to

679
00:31:31,466 --> 00:31:35,290
what it meant to be abolitionists, and

680
00:31:35,290 --> 00:31:38,050
they would repeat these. In fact, many of

681
00:31:38,050 --> 00:31:40,890
the abolitionist meetings were more like

682
00:31:40,890 --> 00:31:44,466
revival meetings and prayer meetings. Most

683
00:31:44,466 --> 00:31:46,866
of these people had experienced camp

684
00:31:46,866 --> 00:31:49,288
meetings, outdoor religious assemblies

685
00:31:49,288 --> 00:31:53,304
themselves, and they manifested this in

686
00:31:53,304 --> 00:31:56,676
abolition. The largest abolition meetings

687
00:31:56,676 --> 00:32:00,588
in the country were held under a huge tent

688
00:32:00,588 --> 00:32:02,956
that had also been used for Charles

689
00:32:02,956 --> 00:32:06,284
Finney's revivals. The same tent. And so

690
00:32:06,284 --> 00:32:09,500
there's this connection between this

691
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:12,260
social justice movement and people of

692
00:32:12,260 --> 00:32:17,904
faith. Well. The scriptures haven't

693
00:32:17,904 --> 00:32:22,308
changed today. We still believe.

694
00:32:22,308 --> 00:32:24,364
Christians still believe that all people

695
00:32:24,364 --> 00:32:27,172
are created in God's image. We still

696
00:32:27,172 --> 00:32:29,532
believe that there is, if you will quote,

697
00:32:29,532 --> 00:32:33,668
one blood. We're all together in this. We

698
00:32:33,668 --> 00:32:36,068
still think that God's going to. Bring all

699
00:32:36,068 --> 00:32:38,300
things together, all tribes, languages,

700
00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:43,964
and peoples. And so, in my sense, as a

701
00:32:43,964 --> 00:32:46,778
theologian, as a historian who's also a

702
00:32:46,778 --> 00:32:50,246
theologian, I think that we are called to

703
00:32:50,246 --> 00:32:53,070
continue that task, not just christians,

704
00:32:53,070 --> 00:32:58,462
but people of all faiths coming together,

705
00:32:58,462 --> 00:33:02,674
finding ways to do justice, love mercy, be

706
00:33:02,674 --> 00:33:06,742
humble, as we work together on the tasks

707
00:33:06,742 --> 00:33:10,126
that are before us, which include racial

708
00:33:10,126 --> 00:33:13,526
justice. And as you've mentioned on your

709
00:33:13,526 --> 00:33:15,954
podcast, many other issues of justice as

710
00:33:15,954 --> 00:33:20,550
well. Yeah. So, so fascinating. Um, you

711
00:33:20,550 --> 00:33:22,398
know, I know some people listening

712
00:33:22,398 --> 00:33:24,382
probably have this question in their mind,

713
00:33:24,382 --> 00:33:27,510
especially if they're in a us context. And

714
00:33:27,510 --> 00:33:29,062
maybe some of the narratives. They've been

715
00:33:29,062 --> 00:33:30,558
told, this is. This is the thing, right?

716
00:33:30,558 --> 00:33:33,286
One of the things I train on globally is

717
00:33:33,286 --> 00:33:35,262
around communication for leadership

718
00:33:35,262 --> 00:33:38,110
development. And all of us have these

719
00:33:38,110 --> 00:33:39,854
filters. We're like these story making

720
00:33:39,854 --> 00:33:41,646
machines. So whatever family we grew up

721
00:33:41,646 --> 00:33:43,134
in, whatever culture we grew up in,

722
00:33:43,134 --> 00:33:44,958
whatever languages we speak, faith,

723
00:33:44,958 --> 00:33:46,918
community, all of that, they're giving us

724
00:33:46,918 --> 00:33:49,654
this unique narrative that we filter all

725
00:33:49,654 --> 00:33:51,766
we're hearing through, and it's as unique

726
00:33:51,766 --> 00:33:53,758
as our fingerprint. So I have twins.

727
00:33:53,758 --> 00:33:56,902
They're 16. They're night and day, and

728
00:33:56,902 --> 00:33:58,142
they have very different filters, even

729
00:33:58,142 --> 00:33:59,702
though they were born six minutes apart in

730
00:33:59,702 --> 00:34:02,358
the same family, right? And so I know some

731
00:34:02,358 --> 00:34:05,582
people have been fed narratives, and even

732
00:34:05,582 --> 00:34:07,558
we can see the historical evidence of

733
00:34:07,558 --> 00:34:11,300
this, of taking actual scriptures that we

734
00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:17,364
all hold dear and either twisting them or

735
00:34:17,364 --> 00:34:20,724
interpreting them in such a way as to

736
00:34:20,724 --> 00:34:23,916
advocate for enslaved peoples back when

737
00:34:23,916 --> 00:34:26,668
the civil war, for example, was going on.

738
00:34:26,668 --> 00:34:28,524
So for those who have this big question

739
00:34:28,524 --> 00:34:30,956
mark over their head, how can the same

740
00:34:30,956 --> 00:34:34,424
scriptures liberate and at the same time

741
00:34:34,424 --> 00:34:36,556
condone enslaving people and bringing them

742
00:34:36,556 --> 00:34:38,826
to forced labor camps against their own

743
00:34:38,826 --> 00:34:43,522
will? Jamar, do you want to take that one?

744
00:34:43,522 --> 00:34:45,306
That's the age old question, and I'm sure

745
00:34:45,306 --> 00:34:48,594
Doug has a lot to say and contribute on

746
00:34:48,594 --> 00:34:51,490
this. One of the things that is apparent

747
00:34:51,490 --> 00:34:55,578
to me from the history of racism and

748
00:34:55,578 --> 00:34:56,962
Christianity in the United States, and I

749
00:34:56,962 --> 00:35:00,066
would argue globally, is that the

750
00:35:00,066 --> 00:35:03,458
justification follows the action. The

751
00:35:03,458 --> 00:35:05,202
justification follows the action. So, in

752
00:35:05,202 --> 00:35:09,630
the case of us race based chattel slavery,

753
00:35:09,630 --> 00:35:10,914
slaveholders were going to get their

754
00:35:10,914 --> 00:35:13,806
money. They were going to find laborers.

755
00:35:13,806 --> 00:35:15,726
They were going to increase their bottom

756
00:35:15,726 --> 00:35:18,022
line by not paying them. And then they

757
00:35:18,022 --> 00:35:19,846
were going to come up with the rationale

758
00:35:19,846 --> 00:35:23,142
and the reasoning to justify it. And I

759
00:35:23,142 --> 00:35:26,542
think that's often what happens with

760
00:35:26,542 --> 00:35:29,630
christian justifications for slavery.

761
00:35:29,630 --> 00:35:33,754
Racism, white supremacy, is there is some

762
00:35:33,754 --> 00:35:36,392
social, economic, media, cultural

763
00:35:36,392 --> 00:35:39,072
advantage that they want, that they're

764
00:35:39,072 --> 00:35:42,088
pursuing, and then they come along and

765
00:35:42,088 --> 00:35:47,336
create a theology to back it up. And so

766
00:35:47,336 --> 00:35:49,872
there's Frederick Douglass's famous line

767
00:35:49,872 --> 00:35:52,728
in the appendix of his autobiography, that

768
00:35:52,728 --> 00:35:55,040
between the Christianity of Christ and the

769
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,608
Christianity of this land, I see the

770
00:35:56,608 --> 00:35:58,976
widest possible difference. And I think

771
00:35:58,976 --> 00:36:02,922
what Douglass is getting at there is this.

772
00:36:02,922 --> 00:36:05,666
Slaveholder Christianity is exactly that.

773
00:36:05,666 --> 00:36:08,762
It is developed by people who were

774
00:36:08,762 --> 00:36:13,402
advocating for slavery in one of its most

775
00:36:13,402 --> 00:36:16,170
pernicious forms lifelong, based on the

776
00:36:16,170 --> 00:36:18,626
status of the mother, based on the color

777
00:36:18,626 --> 00:36:21,010
of your skin, those kinds of things. And

778
00:36:21,010 --> 00:36:23,082
then they went back and talked about

779
00:36:23,082 --> 00:36:26,378
things like the curse of ham, or

780
00:36:26,378 --> 00:36:28,130
ironically, that very passage that Doug

781
00:36:28,130 --> 00:36:32,234
was citing before that we're all of one

782
00:36:32,234 --> 00:36:35,034
blood. There's a passage in acts 1726 that

783
00:36:35,034 --> 00:36:37,346
said, God appointed different times and

784
00:36:37,346 --> 00:36:39,978
places so that we might see God. Right.

785
00:36:39,978 --> 00:36:43,922
There were people who used that line, God

786
00:36:43,922 --> 00:36:46,074
set people in different times and places

787
00:36:46,074 --> 00:36:49,770
to justify racial segregation and said God

788
00:36:49,770 --> 00:36:52,322
did that on purpose, that he separated us.

789
00:36:52,322 --> 00:36:54,682
So what God has created, we shouldn't try

790
00:36:54,682 --> 00:36:57,134
to bring together through racial

791
00:36:57,134 --> 00:37:01,134
integration. So. But that often came after

792
00:37:01,134 --> 00:37:04,174
the segregation was already a fact in

793
00:37:04,174 --> 00:37:06,950
society, after slavery was already a fact

794
00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:09,990
in society, after the advantage of this

795
00:37:09,990 --> 00:37:13,054
social arrangement was already being. Was

796
00:37:13,054 --> 00:37:14,990
already giving benefits to some that they

797
00:37:14,990 --> 00:37:20,182
didn't want to give up. Yeah, we see that

798
00:37:20,182 --> 00:37:23,910
also in terms of how, you know, patriarchy

799
00:37:23,910 --> 00:37:26,198
has been a lens through which the

800
00:37:26,198 --> 00:37:29,274
scriptures have been read. And so very

801
00:37:29,274 --> 00:37:32,462
similar tactic, where inherently there are

802
00:37:32,462 --> 00:37:34,510
just some who believe that men are

803
00:37:34,510 --> 00:37:36,166
superior to women and should rule over

804
00:37:36,166 --> 00:37:38,094
them and therefore have interpreted

805
00:37:38,094 --> 00:37:40,086
scriptures to rule over other human

806
00:37:40,086 --> 00:37:42,198
beings. But what you said, Doug, earlier,

807
00:37:42,198 --> 00:37:44,374
about this whole imago, we're all made in

808
00:37:44,374 --> 00:37:46,974
God's image. Like, when you see that in

809
00:37:46,974 --> 00:37:49,630
Genesis 127, and you understand this is

810
00:37:49,630 --> 00:37:51,950
the core part of what these scriptures are

811
00:37:51,950 --> 00:37:55,006
saying for people of three major world

812
00:37:55,006 --> 00:37:56,590
religions. You know, Christianity,

813
00:37:56,590 --> 00:38:01,192
Judaism, and. And Islam both take these

814
00:38:01,192 --> 00:38:03,720
genesis scriptures very seriously. And so

815
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:07,048
to understand that our common humanity

816
00:38:07,048 --> 00:38:08,936
deserves human dignity and respect, it

817
00:38:08,936 --> 00:38:11,528
would make us work for human rights. But

818
00:38:11,528 --> 00:38:13,400
at the same time, people can twist those

819
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,560
things for other reasons, for even modern

820
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,304
day corporate greed and that type of

821
00:38:18,304 --> 00:38:21,952
thing. Right. So, as we're sort of kind of

822
00:38:21,952 --> 00:38:23,792
driving this home, I do want to give each

823
00:38:23,792 --> 00:38:26,750
of you a chance to sort of help us

824
00:38:26,750 --> 00:38:28,526
understand what calls to action you would

825
00:38:28,526 --> 00:38:30,834
like us to come away with. I know as

826
00:38:30,834 --> 00:38:33,686
historians, you don't like to predict the

827
00:38:33,686 --> 00:38:35,014
future, and I'm not asking you to do

828
00:38:35,014 --> 00:38:36,894
anything like that, but what can we learn

829
00:38:36,894 --> 00:38:40,038
from these abolitionists, in terms of what

830
00:38:40,038 --> 00:38:41,366
you've discovered and written about in

831
00:38:41,366 --> 00:38:44,158
this book that can help us today? Because

832
00:38:44,158 --> 00:38:46,590
we're still facing some similar issues,

833
00:38:46,590 --> 00:38:49,166
and we need to understand how to work

834
00:38:49,166 --> 00:38:51,350
together in such a way as to where we can

835
00:38:51,350 --> 00:38:53,014
overcome these obstacles, and we could see

836
00:38:53,014 --> 00:38:55,080
that happen. What are your calls to action

837
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,512
for us and help us be inspired of. What we

838
00:38:57,512 --> 00:39:03,824
can do together? Well, let me step in. Our

839
00:39:03,824 --> 00:39:08,144
project was, the book is a book written by

840
00:39:08,144 --> 00:39:11,720
ten people, and the actual scholars that

841
00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:14,444
came together was even larger than that.

842
00:39:14,444 --> 00:39:17,984
And the process of doing that, we actually

843
00:39:17,984 --> 00:39:21,692
were able to get a grant, which there are

844
00:39:21,692 --> 00:39:24,464
grants out there that people can apply

845
00:39:24,464 --> 00:39:27,108
for, which allowed us to be able to

846
00:39:27,108 --> 00:39:30,860
gather, to travel to various sites related

847
00:39:30,860 --> 00:39:35,380
to racial justice advocacy and the

848
00:39:35,380 --> 00:39:38,104
traveling, the working together on a

849
00:39:38,104 --> 00:39:41,476
project, writing project. All of this

850
00:39:41,476 --> 00:39:46,036
brought us as scholars, but as people who

851
00:39:46,036 --> 00:39:48,976
were, as Jamar mentioned earlier, who were

852
00:39:48,976 --> 00:39:51,920
very different from one another together.

853
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,124
And we shared our stories with one

854
00:39:54,124 --> 00:39:58,080
another. We learned about who we were as

855
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,728
people and what our experiences were,

856
00:40:00,728 --> 00:40:03,728
positive and negative. Okay. Why? I just

857
00:40:03,728 --> 00:40:07,544
think we can all do this. It didn't take

858
00:40:07,544 --> 00:40:11,040
rocket science for us to just gather and

859
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,584
to talk to one another. We can do that,

860
00:40:14,584 --> 00:40:17,064
but we have to. The question is, are we

861
00:40:17,064 --> 00:40:19,400
intentional about it? Because there are so

862
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,944
many ways in our own culture that we've

863
00:40:21,944 --> 00:40:25,840
been separated. Some intent, some were

864
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,520
intentional segregation efforts, but

865
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,512
others just by happenstance or where we

866
00:40:30,512 --> 00:40:35,840
live. And so it's really, it behooves us

867
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,040
to take the initiative to be intentional

868
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,384
with people who are different. And when we

869
00:40:41,384 --> 00:40:45,576
do so, then we glean, we gain, we grow.

870
00:40:45,576 --> 00:40:49,336
And I think that's what I take away from

871
00:40:49,336 --> 00:40:51,496
this whole project and this book and from

872
00:40:51,496 --> 00:40:55,272
the abolitionists themselves. Awesome.

873
00:40:55,272 --> 00:40:59,760
What about you, Jamar? Real concretely, I

874
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:04,656
would say take pilgrimages together. That

875
00:41:04,656 --> 00:41:08,504
was one of the most powerful aspects of.

876
00:41:08,504 --> 00:41:13,484
Of this project. The book is an edited

877
00:41:13,484 --> 00:41:18,296
volume, fascinating, hard hitting, in

878
00:41:18,296 --> 00:41:21,368
depth, intellectual, but accessible

879
00:41:21,368 --> 00:41:24,472
chapters by various people. But this book

880
00:41:24,472 --> 00:41:29,912
is a product of fellowship. It's a product

881
00:41:29,912 --> 00:41:32,264
of, as it says in proverbs, iron

882
00:41:32,264 --> 00:41:36,764
sharpening iron. And that happened in the

883
00:41:36,764 --> 00:41:40,028
course of going to Oberlin, going to

884
00:41:40,028 --> 00:41:43,188
Washington, DC, going to Benin in West

885
00:41:43,188 --> 00:41:46,548
Africa, places that were significant in

886
00:41:46,548 --> 00:41:49,724
this journal and in the world of slavery

887
00:41:49,724 --> 00:41:52,940
and abolition. And it was the bus rides,

888
00:41:52,940 --> 00:41:55,516
it was the meals, it was the prayers, it

889
00:41:55,516 --> 00:41:59,132
was the singing together that, honestly,

890
00:41:59,132 --> 00:42:03,268
as a participant, it felt like we were

891
00:42:03,268 --> 00:42:07,196
somehow participating in the same kind of

892
00:42:07,196 --> 00:42:10,308
interracial fellowship and solidarity that

893
00:42:10,308 --> 00:42:15,148
knit together this justice community in

894
00:42:15,148 --> 00:42:19,700
over 150 years ago. Right? And now we're

895
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:21,628
participating in it in some way, shape, or

896
00:42:21,628 --> 00:42:23,980
form now. So what I would encourage folks

897
00:42:23,980 --> 00:42:25,916
to do is, if you haven't already or

898
00:42:25,916 --> 00:42:28,300
haven't in a long time, get together with

899
00:42:28,300 --> 00:42:32,836
a group of folks, a book club, a church

900
00:42:32,836 --> 00:42:35,804
group, a civic group, and go to some of

901
00:42:35,804 --> 00:42:39,636
the sites in your own area that are

902
00:42:39,636 --> 00:42:41,984
significant, have some significance

903
00:42:41,984 --> 00:42:44,644
historically. Pay attention not only to

904
00:42:44,644 --> 00:42:47,796
the content of what you're studying, but

905
00:42:47,796 --> 00:42:49,476
to the connections that you're forming.

906
00:42:49,476 --> 00:42:51,724
And I really think that forming those

907
00:42:51,724 --> 00:42:54,420
strong connections is what is going to

908
00:42:54,420 --> 00:42:57,444
give us longevity, perseverance, and

909
00:42:57,444 --> 00:43:00,184
resilience in this ongoing struggle for

910
00:43:00,184 --> 00:43:05,356
justice. Both great calls to action. So

911
00:43:05,356 --> 00:43:07,820
exciting. And we are going to be doing a

912
00:43:07,820 --> 00:43:09,532
giveaway for your, a couple giveaways for

913
00:43:09,532 --> 00:43:12,300
your book, thanks to IVP press, who've

914
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:13,756
generously given us a couple copies to

915
00:43:13,756 --> 00:43:15,612
give away. And I do hope people do join

916
00:43:15,612 --> 00:43:18,300
together in groups to study this book and

917
00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:20,060
form a community because I absolutely

918
00:43:20,060 --> 00:43:21,420
agree. Coming together with our

919
00:43:21,420 --> 00:43:22,612
differences is how we make a difference.

920
00:43:22,612 --> 00:43:25,328
And so, and crossing borders together and

921
00:43:25,328 --> 00:43:27,776
meals together, all of those things are

922
00:43:27,776 --> 00:43:30,448
how these conversations really form and

923
00:43:30,448 --> 00:43:32,376
take place. So thank you so much to both

924
00:43:32,376 --> 00:43:35,784
of you for the, you know, the labor of

925
00:43:35,784 --> 00:43:37,944
love that this book is for all of us to

926
00:43:37,944 --> 00:43:40,432
read and to get it into our hands, to

927
00:43:40,432 --> 00:43:43,440
inspire us from history and from someone's

928
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,144
journal that was discovered high up on a

929
00:43:46,144 --> 00:43:49,616
shelf in this very true crime kind of way

930
00:43:49,616 --> 00:43:51,464
to help us come together on this

931
00:43:51,464 --> 00:43:53,416
conversation today in 2024, because we

932
00:43:53,416 --> 00:43:55,824
need it now more than we ever have some

933
00:43:55,824 --> 00:43:57,792
ways, because it's really time to solve

934
00:43:57,792 --> 00:43:59,256
some of these issues that have been going

935
00:43:59,256 --> 00:44:02,264
on for too many generations. So thank you

936
00:44:02,264 --> 00:44:03,696
both. We're going to also have you hang

937
00:44:03,696 --> 00:44:05,616
out for our Patreon supporters for another

938
00:44:05,616 --> 00:44:07,528
question after this. But how can people

939
00:44:07,528 --> 00:44:08,952
find you and more of your writing? I'll

940
00:44:08,952 --> 00:44:11,000
let you say those couple of things, and

941
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,064
then we'll close out. Well, one thing, if

942
00:44:15,064 --> 00:44:18,024
you're interested in this project, there's

943
00:44:18,024 --> 00:44:21,624
a website called awakeningtojustice.com.

944
00:44:21,624 --> 00:44:25,464
And on that website are free resources,

945
00:44:25,464 --> 00:44:30,488
including a discussion guide for the book.

946
00:44:30,488 --> 00:44:35,344
For each chapter, there are sermon ideas,

947
00:44:35,344 --> 00:44:40,704
music idea, worship song ideas, film

948
00:44:40,704 --> 00:44:43,264
documentary, a 35 minutes film documentary

949
00:44:43,264 --> 00:44:45,964
that's been made that goes along with this

950
00:44:45,964 --> 00:44:48,224
project. And all of those are available on

951
00:44:48,224 --> 00:44:55,280
the website. Yes. And for me, I have a

952
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,816
substack called footnotes. You can go to

953
00:44:57,816 --> 00:45:00,016
jamartisbee dot substack.com. Would love

954
00:45:00,016 --> 00:45:02,968
for you to subscribe. You can be a free

955
00:45:02,968 --> 00:45:06,272
subscriber or support my work. And then

956
00:45:06,272 --> 00:45:08,824
also, along with what Doug just mentioned,

957
00:45:08,824 --> 00:45:12,792
the website, you know, this is great for

958
00:45:12,792 --> 00:45:15,416
church groups to come around or book

959
00:45:15,416 --> 00:45:18,492
studies to come around and study. Think

960
00:45:18,492 --> 00:45:21,972
together about this, host a viewing or a

961
00:45:21,972 --> 00:45:24,580
screening of the film, have a discussion

962
00:45:24,580 --> 00:45:27,764
afterwards, and see how your neighbors

963
00:45:27,764 --> 00:45:31,612
might join in the work of justice. Well,

964
00:45:31,612 --> 00:45:33,756
thank you, Jamara and Doug and everybody.

965
00:45:33,756 --> 00:45:36,108
Pick up a copy of this book or join our

966
00:45:36,108 --> 00:45:38,508
giveaway to get one. It's awakening to

967
00:45:38,508 --> 00:45:40,132
justice. Faithful voices from the

968
00:45:40,132 --> 00:45:41,212
abolitionist past. Thank you both for

969
00:45:41,212 --> 00:45:43,640
being on the show today. Thank you. Thank

970
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,712
you, Lori. These two men writing this book

971
00:45:46,712 --> 00:45:49,880
and bringing it to our attention. Voices

972
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,840
from the past, a history that is so

973
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,176
relevant today. And we can learn so much

974
00:45:56,176 --> 00:45:58,600
from those who have gone before us, both

975
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,560
in terms of making a difference today in

976
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:06,800
areas of racism and areas of breaking down

977
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,912
barriers such as caste in all of the

978
00:46:08,912 --> 00:46:11,814
different societies. I'm mentioning the

979
00:46:11,814 --> 00:46:13,390
word cast because if you haven't read

980
00:46:13,390 --> 00:46:16,094
Isabel Wilkerson's book or even seen the

981
00:46:16,094 --> 00:46:18,774
movie origin regarding the process of her

982
00:46:18,774 --> 00:46:20,502
writing this book and the difference

983
00:46:20,502 --> 00:46:23,806
between understanding the elements of

984
00:46:23,806 --> 00:46:26,238
racism, but also how sometimes it's not

985
00:46:26,238 --> 00:46:30,342
even necessarily about race, reasons we

986
00:46:30,342 --> 00:46:32,838
other people in society or place

987
00:46:32,838 --> 00:46:35,046
hierarchies in there. And occasionally

988
00:46:35,046 --> 00:46:36,926
when you add the layer of racism, when you

989
00:46:36,926 --> 00:46:39,214
add the layer of enslaved peoples on top

990
00:46:39,214 --> 00:46:42,472
of that, it is so many layers to unpack in

991
00:46:42,472 --> 00:46:45,296
a book about what they've written about,

992
00:46:45,296 --> 00:46:47,760
which is awakening to justice and about

993
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:49,096
abolition and the stories from the past

994
00:46:49,096 --> 00:46:51,560
and what people were overcoming. Whenever

995
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,936
you treat other human beings as less than

996
00:46:54,936 --> 00:46:57,528
human, without dignity, without respect,

997
00:46:57,528 --> 00:46:59,504
and all the ways that that could be done

998
00:46:59,504 --> 00:47:01,856
and has been done throughout history in

999
00:47:01,856 --> 00:47:04,720
the United States of America and other

1000
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:08,310
countries in north and South America or

1001
00:47:08,310 --> 00:47:11,062
any other place around the world, then we

1002
00:47:11,062 --> 00:47:14,390
have so much nuance there to unpack. And

1003
00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:17,234
as we face some of the issues we're facing

1004
00:47:17,234 --> 00:47:21,478
today globally, understanding both the

1005
00:47:21,478 --> 00:47:23,206
multicultural aspect of what this

1006
00:47:23,206 --> 00:47:25,358
conversation is about, and certainly these

1007
00:47:25,358 --> 00:47:28,582
two men are just incredible guests to have

1008
00:47:28,582 --> 00:47:30,734
on the show. Doug Stone, with his

1009
00:47:30,734 --> 00:47:32,606
experience in Russia and Korea and

1010
00:47:32,606 --> 00:47:34,046
unpacking some of the intercultural

1011
00:47:34,046 --> 00:47:37,554
aspects of what it even means to be a

1012
00:47:37,554 --> 00:47:40,254
person in his own faith, tradition of

1013
00:47:40,254 --> 00:47:42,346
Christianity or Jamar, and the way he's

1014
00:47:42,346 --> 00:47:43,962
impacted some of the multicultural aspects

1015
00:47:43,962 --> 00:47:46,426
in the United States of America

1016
00:47:46,426 --> 00:47:48,530
specifically. These are nuances to bring

1017
00:47:48,530 --> 00:47:51,650
into the conversation because what has

1018
00:47:51,650 --> 00:47:54,826
happened in the past isn't totally

1019
00:47:54,826 --> 00:47:56,938
detached from what's happening now when it

1020
00:47:56,938 --> 00:48:00,626
comes to any of us standing up for justice

1021
00:48:00,626 --> 00:48:04,350
for all people. And that does actually

1022
00:48:04,350 --> 00:48:07,630
mean all people, all human beings, male,

1023
00:48:07,630 --> 00:48:10,998
female, whatever cultural background or

1024
00:48:10,998 --> 00:48:14,234
race they identify with or socioeconomic

1025
00:48:14,234 --> 00:48:16,462
differences, the ways, like I said, you

1026
00:48:16,462 --> 00:48:18,582
know, that Isabel Wilkerson wrote about in

1027
00:48:18,582 --> 00:48:21,062
her book caste that connected what was

1028
00:48:21,062 --> 00:48:24,446
happening with Adelits in India, who are

1029
00:48:24,446 --> 00:48:26,230
the untouchables, who were having to

1030
00:48:26,230 --> 00:48:28,926
literally scrape out human excrement with

1031
00:48:28,926 --> 00:48:31,062
their own hands, even though they're the

1032
00:48:31,062 --> 00:48:32,966
same race as other people in their own

1033
00:48:32,966 --> 00:48:35,158
country, or what happened in, you know,

1034
00:48:35,158 --> 00:48:37,622
throughout Europe and Germany and

1035
00:48:37,622 --> 00:48:39,974
specifically with the Holocaust, people

1036
00:48:39,974 --> 00:48:43,262
who maybe racially didn't identify

1037
00:48:43,262 --> 00:48:45,894
differently, right? Or, you know, were,

1038
00:48:45,894 --> 00:48:49,174
quote unquote white, you know, appearing,

1039
00:48:49,174 --> 00:48:53,398
presenting and still being exterminated.

1040
00:48:53,398 --> 00:48:55,510
Or you have situations like bringing

1041
00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:57,686
enslaved peoples over from Africa against

1042
00:48:57,686 --> 00:49:00,650
their own will. And certainly the racial

1043
00:49:00,650 --> 00:49:03,066
elements involved in that very stark

1044
00:49:03,066 --> 00:49:06,842
version of racism, which used human bodies

1045
00:49:06,842 --> 00:49:10,354
for free labor, to build wealth for one

1046
00:49:10,354 --> 00:49:12,666
particular race of people, and didn't

1047
00:49:12,666 --> 00:49:15,490
allow, even after enslaved peoples were

1048
00:49:15,490 --> 00:49:18,114
given emancipation, didn't allow them to

1049
00:49:18,114 --> 00:49:20,938
pass on wealth to their own children.

1050
00:49:20,938 --> 00:49:22,386
Certainly racial elements involved in

1051
00:49:22,386 --> 00:49:24,650
that, but also a caste system, right? That

1052
00:49:24,650 --> 00:49:26,026
Isabel Wilkerson was talking about. So,

1053
00:49:26,026 --> 00:49:28,210
once again, even though I'm rendering this

1054
00:49:28,210 --> 00:49:30,130
book, awakening to justice, if you haven't

1055
00:49:30,130 --> 00:49:32,338
read caste, or at least watch the movie

1056
00:49:32,338 --> 00:49:34,170
origins, about how she unpacks that and

1057
00:49:34,170 --> 00:49:36,682
connects that all around the world in ways

1058
00:49:36,682 --> 00:49:38,578
that you wouldn't necessarily connect.

1059
00:49:38,578 --> 00:49:41,266
Dalits in India, what happened in the

1060
00:49:41,266 --> 00:49:42,962
Holocaust, and what's happened in the

1061
00:49:42,962 --> 00:49:44,954
United States of America over time and

1062
00:49:44,954 --> 00:49:48,394
over generations, when we look at enslaved

1063
00:49:48,394 --> 00:49:50,946
peoples, that was 13 generations of people

1064
00:49:50,946 --> 00:49:53,034
that just lived during that portion of

1065
00:49:53,034 --> 00:49:54,754
time. But all the elements that have

1066
00:49:54,754 --> 00:49:58,334
happened since then until now that have

1067
00:49:58,334 --> 00:50:00,558
ripple effects of that. And so looking

1068
00:50:00,558 --> 00:50:03,354
back at people who fought so much for

1069
00:50:03,354 --> 00:50:06,086
abolition and covering these writings in

1070
00:50:06,086 --> 00:50:08,846
the library and something that was just

1071
00:50:08,846 --> 00:50:11,950
tucked away and forgotten and brought out

1072
00:50:11,950 --> 00:50:15,742
for us to understand and look back on at a

1073
00:50:15,742 --> 00:50:18,062
time such as this, when we have

1074
00:50:18,062 --> 00:50:20,006
opportunities to make a difference. So if

1075
00:50:20,006 --> 00:50:22,350
you have not been following Jamar Tisbee

1076
00:50:22,350 --> 00:50:24,464
and his writing and his speaking and his

1077
00:50:24,464 --> 00:50:26,636
work, please do. He's a voice to be

1078
00:50:26,636 --> 00:50:28,380
listened to, and he is making such a

1079
00:50:28,380 --> 00:50:30,492
difference. And also, Doug Stone and the

1080
00:50:30,492 --> 00:50:32,604
difference that they bring together in

1081
00:50:32,604 --> 00:50:35,260
this book, their own unique perspectives,

1082
00:50:35,260 --> 00:50:38,012
even here in this podcast interview, is so

1083
00:50:38,012 --> 00:50:40,644
insightful. So, once again, as always, I'm

1084
00:50:40,644 --> 00:50:42,756
promoting listening to different voices

1085
00:50:42,756 --> 00:50:46,196
because everybody brings a new insight for

1086
00:50:46,196 --> 00:50:47,956
us as we're trying to make a difference

1087
00:50:47,956 --> 00:50:50,036
together around the world and ways that

1088
00:50:50,036 --> 00:50:52,460
bring humans dignity and respect and help

1089
00:50:52,460 --> 00:50:54,944
us understand we have so much more in

1090
00:50:54,944 --> 00:50:57,560
common then we have different. And our

1091
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,424
differences are beautiful. And we want to

1092
00:51:00,424 --> 00:51:02,616
highlight those because it's our different

1093
00:51:02,616 --> 00:51:04,216
perspectives that help each of us think

1094
00:51:04,216 --> 00:51:07,312
more deeply and make a difference together

1095
00:51:07,312 --> 00:51:09,624
in ways we otherwise wouldn't, and at the

1096
00:51:09,624 --> 00:51:11,744
same time, understanding that when we work

1097
00:51:11,744 --> 00:51:13,888
for justice, when we work to make a

1098
00:51:13,888 --> 00:51:16,376
difference together, that we're doing that

1099
00:51:16,376 --> 00:51:18,888
shoulder to shoulder with each other. And

1100
00:51:18,888 --> 00:51:20,928
I really appreciate just having these two

1101
00:51:20,928 --> 00:51:22,856
men speaking into this conversation with

1102
00:51:22,856 --> 00:51:25,806
us today. And so please pick up the book

1103
00:51:25,806 --> 00:51:28,126
awakening to justice. If you have not yet,

1104
00:51:28,126 --> 00:51:29,966
we are going to be having a giveaway, so

1105
00:51:29,966 --> 00:51:34,014
look for details for that on Twitter or X

1106
00:51:34,014 --> 00:51:36,998
and on Instagram. We'll be posting about

1107
00:51:36,998 --> 00:51:40,086
that on our socials. And so would love for

1108
00:51:40,086 --> 00:51:41,870
any of you listening to win a couple of

1109
00:51:41,870 --> 00:51:45,094
books. So look out for that. And if you

1110
00:51:45,094 --> 00:51:47,694
happen to not be one of the winners also

1111
00:51:47,694 --> 00:51:49,854
just consider buying the book. It's

1112
00:51:49,854 --> 00:51:53,252
published by N. Varsity Press, and it is,

1113
00:51:53,252 --> 00:51:54,564
I think, a book that you're really going

1114
00:51:54,564 --> 00:51:57,092
to find insightful, both from the

1115
00:51:57,092 --> 00:51:58,556
historical perspective and what it means

1116
00:51:58,556 --> 00:51:59,996
for us today as we're making a difference

1117
00:51:59,996 --> 00:52:02,732
in conversations around this very topic.

1118
00:52:02,732 --> 00:52:05,588
In the United States of America, in the

1119
00:52:05,588 --> 00:52:09,844
UK, in Australia, in India and Singapore,

1120
00:52:09,844 --> 00:52:11,060
everywhere around the world where you're

1121
00:52:11,060 --> 00:52:12,596
listening, you will gain insights from

1122
00:52:12,596 --> 00:52:14,324
this, even though it's specific to the

1123
00:52:14,324 --> 00:52:16,244
context of the Americas. There's so much

1124
00:52:16,244 --> 00:52:18,028
about this book that really can relate to

1125
00:52:18,028 --> 00:52:20,260
different parts around the world because

1126
00:52:20,260 --> 00:52:23,086
the dialogue around race and as it

1127
00:52:23,086 --> 00:52:25,638
intersects with faith specifically, is a

1128
00:52:25,638 --> 00:52:27,470
conversation we need to keep having as

1129
00:52:27,470 --> 00:52:29,310
we're making a difference together in all

1130
00:52:29,310 --> 00:52:31,222
the parts of the world where we live.

1131
00:52:31,222 --> 00:52:33,182
Thank you so much for being a part of this

1132
00:52:33,182 --> 00:52:34,766
conversation today. Thanks for all the

1133
00:52:34,766 --> 00:52:37,390
work that you're doing wherever you are,

1134
00:52:37,390 --> 00:52:39,238
and I hope that you're taking care of

1135
00:52:39,238 --> 00:52:41,478
yourself. It's another one of those

1136
00:52:41,478 --> 00:52:42,918
podcast episodes where I'm going to

1137
00:52:42,918 --> 00:52:44,926
encourage you to take some time to care

1138
00:52:44,926 --> 00:52:47,118
for yourself because I know many of you

1139
00:52:47,118 --> 00:52:48,814
spend so much time caring for others

1140
00:52:48,814 --> 00:52:51,688
around the world, and we can only give out

1141
00:52:51,688 --> 00:52:54,232
of a cup that's full. So make sure you're

1142
00:52:54,232 --> 00:52:56,656
taking time to just rest. Care for

1143
00:52:56,656 --> 00:52:58,784
yourself in various ways of self care,

1144
00:52:58,784 --> 00:53:00,616
whatever that looks like for you, so that

1145
00:53:00,616 --> 00:53:02,752
you can keep making a difference and as

1146
00:53:02,752 --> 00:53:04,656
always, keep making a difference wherever