Elaine Lin Hering on Overcoming Barriers to Speaking Up: A Framework for Leaders

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Welcome to the a World of Difference

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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is

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a podcast for those who are different and

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want to make a difference. Today we have

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an author on the show who has released a

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book called unlearning how to speak your

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mind, unleash talent, and live more fully.

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It's by Elaine Lin Hering and I'm so

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excited to have her on the show today

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because her book has been so impactful for

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me. I have been reading it on a recent

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airplane ride for one of the trips I was

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making for work, and I just could not put

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it down. Elaine, her writing is so

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compelling. She's written this very

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thoughtful book about her own voice, what

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it means to silence and unlearn and

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continue the process of unlearning silence

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that we have heard in so many spaces. So

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Elaine is a facilitator, a speaker, and a

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writer. She works with organizations and

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individuals to build skills in

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communication, collaboration, and conflict

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management. In her career, Elaine has

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worked on six continents and with a wide

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range of corporate, government, and

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nonprofit clients. So she is our people.

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She has trained mental health

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professionals, political officials,

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religious communities, and leaders at

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companies including American Express,

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Capital one, Google, Nike, Novartis,

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Shell, Pixar, and the Red Cross. Elaine is

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a former managing partner of Triad

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Consulting Group and a lecturer at Harvard

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Law School, specializing in dispute

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resolution, mediation and negotiation. She

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is so intelligent. She is really a genius

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at writing about this concept of voice and

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unlearning silence because she brings in

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her own personal narrative and her own

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vulnerability, but also really readily

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admits that even in her own life, there

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are ways that she has become aware that

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she is silencing others even in the midst

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of having been silenced herself. She also

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brings in her whole perspective as someone

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who immigrated here from Taiwan. Her

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family came to Taiwan, from Taiwan to the

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United States, and just that whole

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immigrant experience and how often we see

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silencing happen in those communities. And

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it's just this book is. I cannot recommend

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it more. So we're gonna unpack it today.

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I'm so excited to have on the show, Elaine

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Lin Hering Well, welcome, Elaine, to the

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World of Difference podcast. I'm so

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excited to dig into this book and get to

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know you a little bit better today. But,

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yeah, welcome over there in Berkeley.

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Thanks so much for having me. Of course,

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yes, I've really enjoyed reading your

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book, which I read on an airplane recently

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on one of my travels, unlearning silence,

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how to speak your mind, unleash talent and

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live more fully. This book was just so

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full of insight and also helped me realize

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some things about myself that I think that

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anyone reading it would. And so I love how

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you very vulnerably dig into this for

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yourself. But I always like to here on the

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podcast, start with questions to help us

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get a little bit more information about

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who you are and your background. And so I

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know that you have a bit of Taiwan in your

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background. I recently got back from

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Taiwan. Actually, one of my direct reports

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is in Taiwan. I was onboarding her there,

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and she's wonderful. But I'd love to know

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a little bit about the cultures and places

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that formed you as we kind of get started

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on this interview with you. Absolutely. I

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am the youngest daughter of an immigrant

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family from Taiwan to the United States.

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So I was born in Taiwan, but basically

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grew up in California. That maybe explains

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why I wrote a book about silence. I also

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grew up in the christian church, and a lot

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of the messages were distilled to me as

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turn the other cheek, be the bigger

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person. Right? So you have all these

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threads of immigrating, trying to

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assimilate into a country so that you

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foster and experience a sense of belonging

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as the youngest daughter against a

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patriarchal culture. I am less than my

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brother because boys, men are prized more,

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traditionally speaking. And I try to be

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clear about what happened later in life

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and in the book. And then certainly a lot

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of that. Culture is just anytime you are

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asking a question, pushing back, even

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having a difference of opinion to people

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who are older than you, you are

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disrespectful. And so that, to me, created

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a really strong relationship with silence

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of to be respectful, to be a good person,

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to be kind means to bite your tongue and

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not say anything. And, of course, I

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watched Bambi when I was five, and Bambi

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said, if you don't have anything nice to

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say, say nothing at all. And I took that

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to heart. And how many of us do? And we'll

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get into the rest of it? Yes, absolutely.

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This is something I know that our

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audience, both in the west and in Asia,

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who've had any sort of cross cultural

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experience going back and forth between

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those two locations will resonate with or

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just anyone who's been raised in a

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collectivist society and then also kind of

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like, landed in an individualistic

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society, kind of how we are here in the

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US. But, you know, there are so many

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beautiful things about both cultures, and

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yet this whole concept of silence is sort

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of very nuanced in all of these places and

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spaces. And when you bring in this

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intersectionality of just the christian

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church and growing up there and so much to

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unpack there, which we do a lot on this

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podcast as well. There's so many voices

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saying, you know, and encouraging your

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silence. But I think that, you know, my

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first really question for you after this

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is, what is silence? How would you

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describe it? Yeah, the lawyer in me is

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really happy that you asked that because I

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love a good definition of terms,

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particularly because there is such value

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to certain types of silence. Right. All

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meditation, key religions of the world,

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that pause between stimulus and response.

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We need more of that silence to get to

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slow thinking, to reflective thinking, and

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many of us could use more of that in the

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world. But the silence that I'm talking

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about here and wanting us to collectively

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unlearn is when there's not enough space

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in the conversation or in the room or in

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the relationship for who you are, for your

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thoughts, preferences, needs, goals, hopes

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and concerns. It's when you're not invited

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to the meeting and you didn't think you

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could ask. It's when you self censored and

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didn't actually say what you thought

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because the voices in your head already

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told you it's not worth it or you're going

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to get made fun of. And all of that means

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that we need to silence ourselves, both

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what we think, but particularly as women

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or anyone who carries a subordinated

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identity, meaning you're not part of the

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dominant culture, whatever context you're

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in, it means that your own needs aren't

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getting met. And we walk around as shells

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of the people that we could be. That's not

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even to start to think about the

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difference that we could make if we were

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actually free to be the people that we are

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or were meant to be. Yeah, it's a lot to

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consider in all of the places and spaces

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where we are, whether it's work,

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community, family, faith based spaces, you

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know, politics, government, all of it is

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so intertwined with all of this. I know. I

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underline, I underline so many parts of

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your book that just, you know, I would

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read it and I would say, oh, my gosh, and

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I'd have to sit there and reflect on it

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for a little bit because it just, it makes

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you think about a lot of existential

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questions about just how we live and why

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and why we do certain things. But like

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early on in the book, on page five, you

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say, what messages have you internalized

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about who gets to speak and be heard and

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whose voice matters? What reflective

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habits have you developed around using

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your own voice or supporting others

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voices? And, yeah, I just, as you thought

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through some of those things for yourself.

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How has that played out in your own life

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when you consider those questions? Yeah, I

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think origin stories are always helpful.

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So, you know, I, growing up as an

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immigrant in the United States, was often

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told in this individualistic society,

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speak up, speak up, speak up. And then,

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yet when I did, I was too loud, I was

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wrong. I was then too quiet, and you sort

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of can't ever get it right. And really

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thought, you know, then there's the

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professional aspect of my life, where I

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spent more than a decade teaching skills

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for negotiation. Difficult conversations,

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giving and receiving feedback across

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industries, across continents. And despite

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those tools and frameworks that my

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colleagues at the Harvard negotiation

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project created being sound, some people

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still wouldn't negotiate or have the

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difficult conversations, give and receive

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feedback. And I started to wonder, why is

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that? And to me, the missing piece really

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is silence. What role does silence play on

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our teams? In what ways have I

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internalized those messages over time such

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that saying, you know, taking a nike

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approach to say, just do it, just speak

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up, doesn't actually work. Right. We have

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these voices in our heads that are

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screaming, but I can't. People like me

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don't do that. Or I've had really negative

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lived experiences from speaking up. So

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there's a cognitive dissonance to what

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you're telling me. Best practice is to my

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own lived experience, and then what am I

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supposed to do? And to me, the problem of

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whether you get heard, whether you have an

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impact, whether you make a world of

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difference, has that that problem has been

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misdiagnosed. Right? A lot of times, the

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problem statement has been presented as if

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you're not being heard. You need to have

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more courage. You need to have more

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confidence. If you could speak up louder,

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more clearly, use fix yourself, then you

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would get heard. Versus in what ways have

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I learned silence? There's certainly

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personal responsibility and accountability

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of what I'm doing, whether or not I'm

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sharing my thoughts and my gifts. But none

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of us live and exist in isolation. So

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there's also the question of, in what ways

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are the often very well intentioned people

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around me, my manager, who in their heart

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of hearts wants to support me, is actually

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silencing me. And of course, we all exist

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in the backdrop of systems. So in what

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ways is silence baked into the policies

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and practices that affect all of us? So

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many of us are tired of talking about

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return to office, you know, post COVID.

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And I'd argue that the reason that that

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conversation lingered on so long is still

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having gnarly tentacles right now is

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because that is an example of one policy

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that supports certain people who have easy

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commutes, who are used to leading in

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person, who, for whom it is familiar,

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comfortable, and advantageous to go to the

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00:11:26,878 --> 00:11:29,094
office. And it silences the people who

264
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benefit from flexibility. And so to take a

265
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more accurate look at the situation is, in

266
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what ways do I silence myself? In what

267
00:11:41,734 --> 00:11:43,606
ways do I silence the people around me,

268
00:11:43,606 --> 00:11:45,414
not because I intend to or because I'm a

269
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bad person, but because I'm human. In what

270
00:11:47,870 --> 00:11:49,662
ways is silence baked into the systems

271
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we're all part of? That starts to unlock

272
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how we can actually be seen, known, and

273
00:11:56,278 --> 00:11:59,334
heard. At work, that translates into

274
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unleashing talent, the best ideas coming

275
00:12:01,318 --> 00:12:04,054
forward, not just the loudest ones. And at

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home and in our interpersonal

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relationships, that is, how can we love

278
00:12:09,646 --> 00:12:12,166
each other better? Yeah, how can we love

279
00:12:12,166 --> 00:12:15,556
each other better? Wow, that's just. We're

280
00:12:15,556 --> 00:12:17,820
just gonna blow this conversation big. We

281
00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:22,384
are just like, wow. I know, right? I think

282
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ultimately, allowing one to have space to

283
00:12:26,188 --> 00:12:29,540
bring them their ideas, their thoughts,

284
00:12:29,540 --> 00:12:33,908
however raw or uncomfortable, where we

285
00:12:33,908 --> 00:12:35,932
suspend judgment and really listen is a

286
00:12:35,932 --> 00:12:39,340
very loving act. And, you know, I do work

287
00:12:39,340 --> 00:12:40,756
for a tech company here in Silicon Valley,

288
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where I go around training globally,

289
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which, you know, took me to Taiwan

290
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recently and is taking me to the UK very

291
00:12:45,654 --> 00:12:48,746
soon again. And I, you know, with all the

292
00:12:48,746 --> 00:12:50,854
cultures I interact with in this

293
00:12:50,854 --> 00:12:55,370
workspace, silencing happens, but also

294
00:12:55,370 --> 00:12:56,898
allowing people to speak happens, and you

295
00:12:56,898 --> 00:13:00,026
can see the difference in just people's

296
00:13:00,026 --> 00:13:01,810
body. So, like, one of the things I train

297
00:13:01,810 --> 00:13:03,226
on is this, and you're probably aware of

298
00:13:03,226 --> 00:13:05,002
it, but, like, Doctor Albert Mehrahbian

299
00:13:05,002 --> 00:13:06,498
did this study back in the 1970s. It's

300
00:13:06,498 --> 00:13:08,490
sort of a seminal study on communication.

301
00:13:08,490 --> 00:13:10,674
And really, only 7% of how we communicate

302
00:13:10,674 --> 00:13:14,878
is words. And there's about, like, 38 ish,

303
00:13:14,878 --> 00:13:17,782
33% in there, depending on tone and

304
00:13:17,782 --> 00:13:19,766
inflection, which is also important to

305
00:13:19,766 --> 00:13:21,558
communicate things. But really, it's that

306
00:13:21,558 --> 00:13:23,830
body language, that 55%, whatever language

307
00:13:23,830 --> 00:13:27,534
we speak, right? And so there's so much

308
00:13:27,534 --> 00:13:29,078
about bringing out someone's voice that

309
00:13:29,078 --> 00:13:31,382
means paying attention to, like, how their

310
00:13:31,382 --> 00:13:33,654
body is responding, and that's a lot of

311
00:13:33,654 --> 00:13:35,462
things to pay attention to. For a manager

312
00:13:35,462 --> 00:13:37,726
in a workspace that's very busy. And the

313
00:13:37,726 --> 00:13:39,616
way that we work in the United States or

314
00:13:39,616 --> 00:13:41,112
even when I lived in Singapore, which is a

315
00:13:41,112 --> 00:13:44,560
very, very busy, fast moving society, it's

316
00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:46,256
hard to pay attention to all those things

317
00:13:46,256 --> 00:13:48,064
and be the kind of leader or manager that

318
00:13:48,064 --> 00:13:50,576
would bring out someone in this way. So I

319
00:13:50,576 --> 00:13:52,040
think that, you know, next I would just

320
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:53,456
love to unpack, because I think people

321
00:13:53,456 --> 00:13:55,496
don't really even understand this. Like,

322
00:13:55,496 --> 00:13:57,120
how would you describe voice? Like, what

323
00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,328
is voice? Yeah. Voice is not just the

324
00:14:00,328 --> 00:14:02,152
words that we say in a meeting. Voice is

325
00:14:02,152 --> 00:14:04,744
how we move through the world. And if we

326
00:14:04,744 --> 00:14:08,216
go back to us, each being human, we're all

327
00:14:08,216 --> 00:14:12,468
wired differently. So logically, it would

328
00:14:12,468 --> 00:14:14,244
make sense that we would communicate in

329
00:14:14,244 --> 00:14:16,036
different ways, that we would care about

330
00:14:16,036 --> 00:14:17,500
different things. And of course, all the

331
00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:19,948
research shows that diverse teams, if you

332
00:14:19,948 --> 00:14:23,644
can harness that diverse perspective,

333
00:14:23,644 --> 00:14:26,636
outperform homogenous teams. The question

334
00:14:26,636 --> 00:14:32,340
is, are we implicitly, unconsciously,

335
00:14:32,340 --> 00:14:34,292
forcing everybody to look and sound the

336
00:14:34,292 --> 00:14:36,508
same in order to get heard? And this is

337
00:14:36,508 --> 00:14:38,716
one of the primary ways that well

338
00:14:38,716 --> 00:14:40,436
intentioned leaders end up silencing the

339
00:14:40,436 --> 00:14:43,820
people they lead. If the prerequisite for

340
00:14:43,820 --> 00:14:46,572
being heard is that you have to speak, at

341
00:14:46,572 --> 00:14:48,900
least in corporate America, in three

342
00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:52,276
succinct bullet points, no ums, with just

343
00:14:52,276 --> 00:14:53,796
the right amount of emotion to show that

344
00:14:53,796 --> 00:14:55,516
you care, but not too much emotion, that

345
00:14:55,516 --> 00:14:59,668
you lose credibility. We get a very narrow

346
00:14:59,668 --> 00:15:02,708
slice of our employee population who is

347
00:15:02,708 --> 00:15:05,932
wired in that way. So one way that we are

348
00:15:05,932 --> 00:15:07,868
wired differently is some people process

349
00:15:07,868 --> 00:15:09,828
information best by talking out loud.

350
00:15:09,828 --> 00:15:13,572
Right, real time processing. And

351
00:15:13,572 --> 00:15:16,020
oftentimes they do a lot of talking in the

352
00:15:16,020 --> 00:15:18,476
meetings. Then there are post processors,

353
00:15:18,476 --> 00:15:19,956
and I don't know how many of our listeners

354
00:15:19,956 --> 00:15:22,724
are like that. I certainly am wired that

355
00:15:22,724 --> 00:15:24,540
way. In the meeting, you can't quite

356
00:15:24,540 --> 00:15:26,060
figure out what to say, but 20 minutes

357
00:15:26,060 --> 00:15:28,372
later you're like, oh, that's what I

358
00:15:28,372 --> 00:15:32,204
wanted to say. Right. And that often in

359
00:15:32,204 --> 00:15:35,612
our workplaces is coded as weakness rather

360
00:15:35,612 --> 00:15:39,510
than wiring. And to put those two ideas

361
00:15:39,510 --> 00:15:42,214
together, what do we do about it? Well, we

362
00:15:42,214 --> 00:15:44,926
design our communication flows, how we

363
00:15:44,926 --> 00:15:46,686
communicate, rather than default to the

364
00:15:46,686 --> 00:15:50,006
way that things have always been done. If

365
00:15:50,006 --> 00:15:52,782
someone on my team is a post processor,

366
00:15:52,782 --> 00:15:55,558
and statistically speaking, there are

367
00:15:55,558 --> 00:15:59,006
members of your team, wouldn't we want

368
00:15:59,006 --> 00:16:02,598
their ideas in the mix? And that can look

369
00:16:02,598 --> 00:16:04,798
like in a meeting. You know, the real time

370
00:16:04,798 --> 00:16:06,606
processors are processing great. We sort

371
00:16:06,606 --> 00:16:09,310
of get to what we think is going to be a

372
00:16:09,310 --> 00:16:11,790
decision. And if we planned ahead, to say,

373
00:16:11,790 --> 00:16:14,110
great, everybody sleep on it. And as

374
00:16:14,110 --> 00:16:16,902
you're post processing, if things come up,

375
00:16:16,902 --> 00:16:19,174
put it in slack or put it on this email

376
00:16:19,174 --> 00:16:21,342
thread, right. Being really specific about

377
00:16:21,342 --> 00:16:24,910
the channel to take the guesswork out of,

378
00:16:24,910 --> 00:16:26,990
well, you know, do I raise something? Am I

379
00:16:26,990 --> 00:16:30,678
going to look like I'm a flip flopper? You

380
00:16:30,678 --> 00:16:32,654
know, all of these things being really

381
00:16:32,654 --> 00:16:36,474
clear about this is we are actively

382
00:16:36,474 --> 00:16:40,214
designing for differences of wiring and

383
00:16:40,214 --> 00:16:42,698
communication in the way that we work

384
00:16:42,698 --> 00:16:45,970
together so that the people who type, who

385
00:16:45,970 --> 00:16:47,330
communicate more effectively by typing

386
00:16:47,330 --> 00:16:50,522
than talking, are as equally represented.

387
00:16:50,522 --> 00:16:56,714
And it's not seen as a second back seat

388
00:16:56,714 --> 00:16:58,242
conversation where you sort of need to

389
00:16:58,242 --> 00:17:01,130
jump into the front seat. It's just how we

390
00:17:01,130 --> 00:17:04,688
work together and that reducing the

391
00:17:04,688 --> 00:17:07,992
barrier to entry is one way that we can

392
00:17:07,992 --> 00:17:12,592
support voice showing up differently and

393
00:17:12,592 --> 00:17:15,204
also allowing those thoughts into the

394
00:17:15,204 --> 00:17:18,440
conversation. So good. So much to unpack

395
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,672
there, and so many great, just insights

396
00:17:20,672 --> 00:17:23,616
that you're giving us. One thing that I

397
00:17:23,616 --> 00:17:25,384
noticed, and I've noticed in a previous

398
00:17:25,384 --> 00:17:27,912
workplace in particular, I worked in a

399
00:17:27,912 --> 00:17:29,576
very hostile work environment at one point

400
00:17:29,576 --> 00:17:31,564
where a lot of people ended up with NDAs.

401
00:17:31,564 --> 00:17:33,984
And, you know, kind of what you're saying

402
00:17:33,984 --> 00:17:37,096
is, I. I asked a question, and questions

403
00:17:37,096 --> 00:17:38,552
weren't welcome. I didn't realize, you

404
00:17:38,552 --> 00:17:39,928
know, because you kind of. There's these

405
00:17:39,928 --> 00:17:42,648
unwritten rules that it looks very

406
00:17:42,648 --> 00:17:45,056
diverse. You know, there was a diversity,

407
00:17:45,056 --> 00:17:46,976
somewhat of people on staff, not as much

408
00:17:46,976 --> 00:17:48,712
diversity of women, but somewhere. And

409
00:17:48,712 --> 00:17:50,360
then there were asian american women who

410
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,056
had been second, you know, first or second

411
00:17:52,056 --> 00:17:53,568
generation immigrants here in the US. And,

412
00:17:53,568 --> 00:17:54,896
you know, there's. You understand that

413
00:17:54,896 --> 00:17:57,648
dynamic very well, but it was sort of

414
00:17:57,648 --> 00:17:59,280
like, oh, these people are here, and they

415
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,224
do things for us, but we don't really

416
00:18:01,224 --> 00:18:03,496
welcome their voice in every way. And I

417
00:18:03,496 --> 00:18:05,000
didn't realize those kind of unwritten

418
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,504
rules were there until I kind of, you

419
00:18:06,504 --> 00:18:08,040
know, asked a question. And then I learned

420
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,684
really quick that was not okay. But

421
00:18:10,684 --> 00:18:14,776
anyway, a lot of the conversation in that

422
00:18:14,776 --> 00:18:16,680
space, I realized, is that people just

423
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,672
were completely unaware of silencing, of

424
00:18:19,672 --> 00:18:21,728
the dynamics of men, women, of these

425
00:18:21,728 --> 00:18:23,824
certain things. And so I guess the

426
00:18:23,824 --> 00:18:24,960
question is, you know, we have all these

427
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,152
families of origin, all of our filters,

428
00:18:27,152 --> 00:18:29,320
and our brains are unique to us based. I

429
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,104
train on this, too. It's like we go

430
00:18:32,104 --> 00:18:34,312
through our day hearing everything through

431
00:18:34,312 --> 00:18:35,992
our own unique filter. It's as unique as

432
00:18:35,992 --> 00:18:39,164
our fingerprint. Right. But how do we

433
00:18:39,164 --> 00:18:41,284
learn silence typically throughout our

434
00:18:41,284 --> 00:18:43,308
lives? How does that really even take

435
00:18:43,308 --> 00:18:45,028
place? Yeah, certainly. And this is

436
00:18:45,028 --> 00:18:46,500
chapter one of the book, the silence.

437
00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:49,420
We've learned one way is in our families

438
00:18:49,420 --> 00:18:53,692
of origin. Another way is in our education

439
00:18:53,692 --> 00:18:56,028
systems, frankly. And this is where we are

440
00:18:56,028 --> 00:18:58,420
all tied into a systemic challenge. If we

441
00:18:58,420 --> 00:19:01,220
think about public schools, funding is

442
00:19:01,220 --> 00:19:02,956
linked to performance, so we're teaching

443
00:19:02,956 --> 00:19:05,852
to the tests, then we start to silence

444
00:19:05,852 --> 00:19:07,372
critical thinking and creativity. And

445
00:19:07,372 --> 00:19:10,788
there's a very narrow value and

446
00:19:10,788 --> 00:19:12,900
perspective of what voice is. And because

447
00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:15,804
teachers are underpaid and, you know, the

448
00:19:15,804 --> 00:19:18,028
teacher to student ratio, it starts to get

449
00:19:18,028 --> 00:19:21,068
really complex really quickly. But we also

450
00:19:21,068 --> 00:19:24,748
learn silence in school, in regurgitating

451
00:19:24,748 --> 00:19:26,660
thoughts rather than thinking critically,

452
00:19:26,660 --> 00:19:28,804
or whether we were rewarded for raising

453
00:19:28,804 --> 00:19:31,650
our hand, because then you're disruptive

454
00:19:31,650 --> 00:19:34,442
then in the workplace. I mean, the silence

455
00:19:34,442 --> 00:19:36,890
is, as you said, I asked a question

456
00:19:36,890 --> 00:19:38,258
because I thought that's what our values

457
00:19:38,258 --> 00:19:40,762
on the wall say. But clearly, that's not

458
00:19:40,762 --> 00:19:45,162
what we actually do here. And we get the

459
00:19:45,162 --> 00:19:46,858
phenomenon, collective phenomenon, of

460
00:19:46,858 --> 00:19:49,298
saying nothing, which is the definition of

461
00:19:49,298 --> 00:19:51,938
organizational silence and employee

462
00:19:51,938 --> 00:19:54,050
silence, where we each do the calculation

463
00:19:54,050 --> 00:19:57,814
of, oh, it's not worth it to say something

464
00:19:57,814 --> 00:20:01,274
here, but it's also, what do we talk about

465
00:20:01,274 --> 00:20:04,106
in society? The hash metoo movement came

466
00:20:04,106 --> 00:20:06,706
about because someone said this actually

467
00:20:06,706 --> 00:20:09,018
happened, and everyone else said, oh, me

468
00:20:09,018 --> 00:20:12,082
too. But if we look at how people who

469
00:20:12,082 --> 00:20:15,146
report abuse or harassment get dragged

470
00:20:15,146 --> 00:20:17,490
through the mud, their reputations

471
00:20:17,490 --> 00:20:19,778
damaged, or whistleblowers, and the

472
00:20:19,778 --> 00:20:22,602
significant impact on mental health,

473
00:20:22,602 --> 00:20:25,160
emotional health, relational health, the

474
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,904
whistleblower for Boeing, it seems like,

475
00:20:27,904 --> 00:20:33,360
just took his life. And that is so real.

476
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:36,128
And the chapter three of the book is when

477
00:20:36,128 --> 00:20:38,616
silence makes sense, because the costs to

478
00:20:38,616 --> 00:20:41,224
speaking up are real. There is a utility

479
00:20:41,224 --> 00:20:44,344
to silence, to keep my job, to keep my

480
00:20:44,344 --> 00:20:48,440
seat at the table, to pay my bills. But

481
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,672
this is how we learn silence individually

482
00:20:51,672 --> 00:20:53,536
and then collectively. You know, if we're

483
00:20:53,536 --> 00:20:55,384
new to an organization or more junior,

484
00:20:55,384 --> 00:20:57,376
we're looking around, as you mentioned, to

485
00:20:57,376 --> 00:21:00,488
say, how do things work around here? And

486
00:21:00,488 --> 00:21:04,472
if I don't see leadership in honest,

487
00:21:04,472 --> 00:21:07,328
candid dialogue and discussion, then I

488
00:21:07,328 --> 00:21:09,320
very naturally draw the conclusion, we

489
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,216
don't talk about those things here. And

490
00:21:11,216 --> 00:21:13,144
that leads to groupthink, and that leads

491
00:21:13,144 --> 00:21:15,240
to basically every corporate scandal of

492
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,760
the last couple centuries, as well as

493
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,202
impacts on talent, engagement, and

494
00:21:22,202 --> 00:21:24,806
retention. Right? Is this somewhere that I

495
00:21:24,806 --> 00:21:29,006
can actually lend my gifts and talents, or

496
00:21:29,006 --> 00:21:31,990
am I a cog in a wheel? Am I valued here

497
00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:34,006
for my humanity, or am I valued here for

498
00:21:34,006 --> 00:21:36,926
my utility? If the job is actually to just

499
00:21:36,926 --> 00:21:40,110
do the role, which sometimes it is, or we

500
00:21:40,110 --> 00:21:41,950
get that sense from our managers, then

501
00:21:41,950 --> 00:21:44,734
where is there room for me? And of course,

502
00:21:44,734 --> 00:21:47,686
life is messy. The world right now around

503
00:21:47,686 --> 00:21:50,158
us is messy. Everything we're carrying in

504
00:21:50,158 --> 00:21:51,966
interpersonal relationships and family

505
00:21:51,966 --> 00:21:54,986
dynamics is messy. And so I can understand

506
00:21:54,986 --> 00:21:58,082
from a producing widgets perspective,

507
00:21:58,082 --> 00:21:59,850
right, leave all that at the door. Come

508
00:21:59,850 --> 00:22:02,770
in, do your job, get paid. It's a

509
00:22:02,770 --> 00:22:04,498
transaction. Except we as human beings,

510
00:22:04,498 --> 00:22:07,634
aren't wired that way. And also

511
00:22:07,634 --> 00:22:09,106
difference, having a difference of opinion

512
00:22:09,106 --> 00:22:12,266
is the core of innovation, and being heard

513
00:22:12,266 --> 00:22:15,530
is the core of collaboration. So it takes

514
00:22:15,530 --> 00:22:18,642
us back to, well, what do I own right. In

515
00:22:18,642 --> 00:22:20,962
what ways am I editing myself, holding

516
00:22:20,962 --> 00:22:23,826
back? And am I choosing that silence? Or

517
00:22:23,826 --> 00:22:26,306
is silence the only choice for me, that to

518
00:22:26,306 --> 00:22:30,306
me, that agency is a real difference? And

519
00:22:30,306 --> 00:22:33,106
then what can we each do to create that

520
00:22:33,106 --> 00:22:38,546
space for voice? Because having someone

521
00:22:38,546 --> 00:22:40,946
else disrupt the bias in the conversation

522
00:22:40,946 --> 00:22:43,306
or say, hold on, I want to hear what Lori

523
00:22:43,306 --> 00:22:47,050
has to say. Let her finish. That creates

524
00:22:47,050 --> 00:22:48,562
an environment. If we're all doing that

525
00:22:48,562 --> 00:22:51,474
for each other, regardless of our

526
00:22:51,474 --> 00:22:52,922
positionality, we're creating a really

527
00:22:52,922 --> 00:22:55,152
different team dynamic than if Lori's on

528
00:22:55,152 --> 00:22:58,624
her own and I'm on my own. And you know

529
00:22:58,624 --> 00:23:00,872
what? None of us have energy to fight any

530
00:23:00,872 --> 00:23:02,280
of these battles. So we're just going to

531
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:08,872
stay silent. Yeah, I think that so many

532
00:23:08,872 --> 00:23:12,632
people listening are, you know, probably

533
00:23:12,632 --> 00:23:14,640
having memories in their minds right now

534
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,424
of situations that you're reminding them

535
00:23:16,424 --> 00:23:18,976
of. And, you know, I think that a question

536
00:23:18,976 --> 00:23:22,014
for a lot of us out there who are managers

537
00:23:22,014 --> 00:23:23,926
or, you know, have any sort of direct

538
00:23:23,926 --> 00:23:25,838
reports in our work, whether it's

539
00:23:25,838 --> 00:23:28,114
volunteer driven or, you know, in our

540
00:23:28,114 --> 00:23:30,302
workplace or even just parents of

541
00:23:30,302 --> 00:23:31,630
children, you know, we can definitely

542
00:23:31,630 --> 00:23:34,206
silence our children because of all the

543
00:23:34,206 --> 00:23:35,278
reasons, you know, we might be tired at

544
00:23:35,278 --> 00:23:37,198
the end of a work day, or it might be the

545
00:23:37,198 --> 00:23:39,110
child is in that why phase, and it's hard

546
00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:41,870
to kind of answer those questions. Or

547
00:23:41,870 --> 00:23:43,382
they're teenagers and they say things that

548
00:23:43,382 --> 00:23:46,118
are just like, wow, they're trying to

549
00:23:46,118 --> 00:23:47,718
explore, and it feels scary and

550
00:23:47,718 --> 00:23:49,142
uncomfortable. And so there's a lot of,

551
00:23:49,142 --> 00:23:51,486
you know, ways we could diminish the

552
00:23:51,486 --> 00:23:53,302
voices of those around us. But I guess the

553
00:23:53,302 --> 00:23:55,102
question I'm wanting to hear from you now

554
00:23:55,102 --> 00:23:58,174
is, what are ways we can sort of help

555
00:23:58,174 --> 00:23:59,766
people bring their voice to the table? And

556
00:23:59,766 --> 00:24:03,006
there are these power dynamics that exist

557
00:24:03,006 --> 00:24:05,966
as a manager, as a parent, that even if

558
00:24:05,966 --> 00:24:07,606
you say, hey, I want to hear your opinion,

559
00:24:07,606 --> 00:24:09,958
that may not be the best. And, you know,

560
00:24:09,958 --> 00:24:11,862
it may not produce the outcome we want. It

561
00:24:11,862 --> 00:24:15,222
still may. There may be fear in the

562
00:24:15,222 --> 00:24:16,742
dynamic where people wouldn't share. So

563
00:24:16,742 --> 00:24:18,558
what are some things we could do to help

564
00:24:18,558 --> 00:24:20,166
people really bring their voice to the

565
00:24:20,166 --> 00:24:23,310
table? Yeah, absolutely. So designing our

566
00:24:23,310 --> 00:24:24,662
communication patterns like we talked

567
00:24:24,662 --> 00:24:27,822
about earlier, and that literally is a

568
00:24:27,822 --> 00:24:31,582
32nd conversation, or pop that question in

569
00:24:31,582 --> 00:24:33,790
slack for post processors, and you can

570
00:24:33,790 --> 00:24:36,750
communicate about it asynchronously. What

571
00:24:36,750 --> 00:24:38,910
makes it easiest for you to share your

572
00:24:38,910 --> 00:24:41,462
thoughts and feelings? Because I care and

573
00:24:41,462 --> 00:24:43,446
want to know or whatever is appropriate

574
00:24:43,446 --> 00:24:46,334
for your context and culture so that you

575
00:24:46,334 --> 00:24:48,726
get intel. It's not to say that you can

576
00:24:48,726 --> 00:24:50,894
only then communicate with them in that

577
00:24:50,894 --> 00:24:53,030
way, but you can better understand, oh,

578
00:24:53,030 --> 00:24:54,774
when Lori chooses to slack me, that's

579
00:24:54,774 --> 00:24:56,806
because she's playing to her strengths

580
00:24:56,806 --> 00:24:59,674
rather than my default of pick up the

581
00:24:59,674 --> 00:25:02,646
phone. Then a couple of other tactical

582
00:25:02,646 --> 00:25:06,022
pieces. One is as a manager or even as

583
00:25:06,022 --> 00:25:08,014
parent. When you say, what do you think?

584
00:25:08,014 --> 00:25:10,406
That feels like a trap, right? If I'm on

585
00:25:10,406 --> 00:25:11,686
the receiving end of what do you think?

586
00:25:11,686 --> 00:25:14,230
I'm like, oh, how honest do you really

587
00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:16,646
want me to be? This didn't go over so well

588
00:25:16,646 --> 00:25:21,324
last time. But if we leverage standard

589
00:25:21,324 --> 00:25:23,600
questions and every time we're evaluating

590
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,016
a topic or a concern or a project, we ask

591
00:25:27,016 --> 00:25:28,760
the same questions, what are the pros of

592
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,176
this idea? What are the cons of the idea?

593
00:25:31,176 --> 00:25:32,864
What about this works? What about this

594
00:25:32,864 --> 00:25:35,712
doesn't work? What resonates? What doesn't

595
00:25:35,712 --> 00:25:37,884
resonate? You know, you're inviting the

596
00:25:37,884 --> 00:25:40,544
positive, and you're also inviting what is

597
00:25:40,544 --> 00:25:43,000
classically negative. But the standard

598
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,272
questions helps people expect that, oh,

599
00:25:46,272 --> 00:25:47,304
these are the questions we're going to

600
00:25:47,304 --> 00:25:48,960
answer in the meeting. So the post

601
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,392
processors can sort of pre process. And

602
00:25:51,392 --> 00:25:52,688
also you're signaling, I want to know

603
00:25:52,688 --> 00:25:55,064
about the cons, right? I want to know what

604
00:25:55,064 --> 00:25:57,336
doesn't resonate. That's just naturally

605
00:25:57,336 --> 00:26:01,480
what we talk about here. The other is one

606
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,204
of my favorites, which is using magic wand

607
00:26:05,204 --> 00:26:07,792
questions. So if you had a magic wand,

608
00:26:07,792 --> 00:26:09,400
what would you change? Or if you had a

609
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,096
magic wand, what would you do? And there's

610
00:26:11,096 --> 00:26:15,392
a whimsy to it and a cover of magic, of

611
00:26:15,392 --> 00:26:18,472
we're suspending reality. So all of our

612
00:26:18,472 --> 00:26:20,528
critical thinking and the rebuttals that

613
00:26:20,528 --> 00:26:23,396
we can come up with, our heads take a

614
00:26:23,396 --> 00:26:25,124
backseat for just a minute to say, if I

615
00:26:25,124 --> 00:26:26,868
really had a magic wand, here's what I

616
00:26:26,868 --> 00:26:29,012
want to change about our relationship. And

617
00:26:29,012 --> 00:26:29,972
when you start to push back. You'D be

618
00:26:29,972 --> 00:26:32,060
like, well, that was just magic, right?

619
00:26:32,060 --> 00:26:34,964
But that starts to invite in what people

620
00:26:34,964 --> 00:26:37,972
really think, and then you can unpack

621
00:26:37,972 --> 00:26:40,980
that. But I would say that being human

622
00:26:40,980 --> 00:26:44,884
means that it is naturally hard to listen

623
00:26:44,884 --> 00:26:47,028
to people who look and sound different

624
00:26:47,028 --> 00:26:49,744
than us, much less have different

625
00:26:49,744 --> 00:26:51,950
perspective. Right. We gravitate toward

626
00:26:51,950 --> 00:26:54,342
people who look and sound like us. There's

627
00:26:54,342 --> 00:26:56,526
a ton of research around it. It makes

628
00:26:56,526 --> 00:26:58,438
sense, particularly when we're

629
00:26:58,438 --> 00:27:02,174
oversubscribed and too busy. But we also

630
00:27:02,174 --> 00:27:04,038
know, at least intellectually, what we

631
00:27:04,038 --> 00:27:07,526
miss out on if we're only talking and

632
00:27:07,526 --> 00:27:09,774
listening to people who sound like us. So

633
00:27:09,774 --> 00:27:13,606
there is a muscle. And this is in the book

634
00:27:13,606 --> 00:27:16,062
of how to listen across difference. And

635
00:27:16,062 --> 00:27:18,190
difference isn't just difference of

636
00:27:18,190 --> 00:27:20,574
perspective, but difference of style. Can

637
00:27:20,574 --> 00:27:23,070
we listen to someone who might tear up

638
00:27:23,070 --> 00:27:25,750
when they're crying or they're talking and

639
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:30,806
let that be okay. And as I say, an um.

640
00:27:30,806 --> 00:27:33,822
Listen to people who use ums as a pause or

641
00:27:33,822 --> 00:27:35,694
as a thoughtfulness. I mean, each of those

642
00:27:35,694 --> 00:27:38,038
things have different meanings across

643
00:27:38,038 --> 00:27:40,422
culture. And if we're shoehorning, putting

644
00:27:40,422 --> 00:27:43,342
people in a particular box, we only get a

645
00:27:43,342 --> 00:27:45,510
slice of data that is limited to the data

646
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:48,952
set of people who look and sound like us.

647
00:27:48,952 --> 00:27:53,104
One of my hopes with the book is that I am

648
00:27:53,104 --> 00:27:55,960
lending potentially a different voice than

649
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,640
a reader's. And for those of us who have

650
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,376
been asked, you know, tell me what it's

651
00:28:00,376 --> 00:28:02,320
like to be asian American in corporate

652
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,592
America and we're so tired of, I get a

653
00:28:05,592 --> 00:28:08,200
little someone said edgy in the book, but

654
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,176
it's 2024. Google it right there. I've

655
00:28:11,176 --> 00:28:13,192
been a ton that has been written about it.

656
00:28:13,192 --> 00:28:15,104
So you don't need me to do the emotional

657
00:28:15,104 --> 00:28:17,120
labor. You don't need your colleague to do

658
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:19,736
the emotional relational labor to educate

659
00:28:19,736 --> 00:28:24,376
you on top of doing their day job. But

660
00:28:24,376 --> 00:28:26,080
part of the hope of the. Book is here is

661
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:27,984
another perspective. It may not be

662
00:28:27,984 --> 00:28:30,200
comfortable, you may not agree with me,

663
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,928
but the aim is to be at least naming

664
00:28:33,928 --> 00:28:37,504
silence as a thing, because it impacts all

665
00:28:37,504 --> 00:28:40,096
of us, whether or not we want to recognize

666
00:28:40,096 --> 00:28:42,160
it. And the best thing we can do as

667
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,136
leaders or as parents, is to be cognizant

668
00:28:45,136 --> 00:28:47,904
that silence exists. And if we're not

669
00:28:47,904 --> 00:28:50,776
actively managing the role that silence

670
00:28:50,776 --> 00:28:53,688
has in our teens or in our families, it

671
00:28:53,688 --> 00:28:56,204
likely is silencing the people we care

672
00:28:56,204 --> 00:28:58,944
about. The parenting question is a really

673
00:28:58,944 --> 00:29:00,872
hard one. I have a six year old. We have a

674
00:29:00,872 --> 00:29:03,484
lot of why questions, and I am really

675
00:29:03,484 --> 00:29:08,824
tired. And even that awareness of if I

676
00:29:08,824 --> 00:29:12,032
want to raise my son in a way that signals

677
00:29:12,032 --> 00:29:13,928
to him that he has a voice, what might I

678
00:29:13,928 --> 00:29:16,556
do here? And to be really clear,

679
00:29:16,556 --> 00:29:19,028
unlearning silence does not mean saying

680
00:29:19,028 --> 00:29:21,420
everything to everyone all the time. The

681
00:29:21,420 --> 00:29:24,124
world is too complex and too noisy for

682
00:29:24,124 --> 00:29:26,572
that, because there's also what impact do

683
00:29:26,572 --> 00:29:29,620
your words have on the people around you?

684
00:29:29,620 --> 00:29:33,084
So that is very much the dance in

685
00:29:33,084 --> 00:29:37,220
parenting of here's how I see the world,

686
00:29:37,220 --> 00:29:39,784
here's the impact that you're having on

687
00:29:39,784 --> 00:29:43,058
me, or I cannot have this conversation

688
00:29:43,058 --> 00:29:45,370
right now, and I really. Care about what

689
00:29:45,370 --> 00:29:48,186
you are thinking. So let's find a time or

690
00:29:48,186 --> 00:29:51,674
a place or a way that works for both of

691
00:29:51,674 --> 00:29:54,666
us. But it is this ongoing journey, which

692
00:29:54,666 --> 00:29:57,386
is why the book is called unlearning

693
00:29:57,386 --> 00:29:59,866
silence ing. Rather than unlearn, check

694
00:29:59,866 --> 00:30:01,498
the box. We've unlearned silence. We're

695
00:30:01,498 --> 00:30:05,586
done here. Wow. Excellent point. Yeah. It

696
00:30:05,586 --> 00:30:07,584
is a process. It's hard because it's

697
00:30:07,584 --> 00:30:09,624
coming at us from all angles in all

698
00:30:09,624 --> 00:30:12,408
different ways. You talk about these three

699
00:30:12,408 --> 00:30:14,032
levers of voice. Could you unpack that a

700
00:30:14,032 --> 00:30:16,464
little bit for us? Yeah. The three levers

701
00:30:16,464 --> 00:30:20,144
for voice come from a classic negotiation

702
00:30:20,144 --> 00:30:22,168
analysis. So in the 1980s, my colleagues

703
00:30:22,168 --> 00:30:25,352
at the Harvard negotiation project noticed

704
00:30:25,352 --> 00:30:27,920
that each negotiation is actually the

705
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,512
confluence of three negotiations. You're

706
00:30:30,512 --> 00:30:32,224
negotiating about the substance, the terms

707
00:30:32,224 --> 00:30:35,592
and conditions of the deal, to say, to put

708
00:30:35,592 --> 00:30:37,976
it lightly. And you're also negotiating

709
00:30:37,976 --> 00:30:40,576
the relationship, who's in the room, how

710
00:30:40,576 --> 00:30:43,160
we feel treated, and if any of us have

711
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,528
people in our lives that we don't like, we

712
00:30:45,528 --> 00:30:49,504
know that we, hypothetically, right. If we

713
00:30:49,504 --> 00:30:51,944
don't like them, we are much less likely

714
00:30:51,944 --> 00:30:54,832
to want to work with them or to say yes to

715
00:30:54,832 --> 00:30:57,560
them. So the relationship, the level of

716
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,520
trust, and how we feel treated by them

717
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,400
actually profoundly impacts the substance.

718
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,440
And last but not least is process, which

719
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,072
is the underestimated stepchild of the

720
00:31:07,072 --> 00:31:10,392
three process. So substance is the what,

721
00:31:10,392 --> 00:31:12,664
relationship is the who, process is the

722
00:31:12,664 --> 00:31:14,552
how. How are we working together? That's

723
00:31:14,552 --> 00:31:16,624
all the design work that we were talking

724
00:31:16,624 --> 00:31:20,088
about in terms of communication patterns.

725
00:31:20,088 --> 00:31:22,088
I looked at that from the standpoint of a

726
00:31:22,088 --> 00:31:24,056
mediator. And a mediator's job typically,

727
00:31:24,056 --> 00:31:26,936
is to hold the process so that people can

728
00:31:26,936 --> 00:31:29,222
focus on the substance. It's also to tend

729
00:31:29,222 --> 00:31:32,134
to the relationship. But to me, that

730
00:31:32,134 --> 00:31:34,422
actually serves as three levers for voice,

731
00:31:34,422 --> 00:31:36,350
because so often we think, look, I'm not

732
00:31:36,350 --> 00:31:39,302
the subject matter expert, right? This

733
00:31:39,302 --> 00:31:40,982
person has been at the company. They're

734
00:31:40,982 --> 00:31:42,518
the founder, or they've been at the

735
00:31:42,518 --> 00:31:45,270
company for 20 years. How could I possibly

736
00:31:45,270 --> 00:31:47,558
talk about the substance? Well, number

737
00:31:47,558 --> 00:31:50,150
one, you can, because you have a unique

738
00:31:50,150 --> 00:31:52,878
lens on the world and on whatever the

739
00:31:52,878 --> 00:31:54,670
subject is, right? You might just say with

740
00:31:54,670 --> 00:31:57,344
fresh eyes, or coming to this as the

741
00:31:57,344 --> 00:32:00,536
newbie and own that perspective. Your

742
00:32:00,536 --> 00:32:02,584
perspective is limited, but also

743
00:32:02,584 --> 00:32:06,176
legitimate, as is everyone else's. So what

744
00:32:06,176 --> 00:32:08,176
lens of the world are you using on the

745
00:32:08,176 --> 00:32:10,344
substance? But we get hung up on thinking,

746
00:32:10,344 --> 00:32:12,336
I don't have much to say on the substance,

747
00:32:12,336 --> 00:32:15,352
and so I don't have anything to say at all

748
00:32:15,352 --> 00:32:17,496
versus tending to the relationship. Right.

749
00:32:17,496 --> 00:32:20,336
How are people in the room feeling? Who's

750
00:32:20,336 --> 00:32:22,444
not in the room? If you're in a

751
00:32:22,444 --> 00:32:25,226
conversation with the sales team and

752
00:32:25,226 --> 00:32:26,562
engineering's not in the room, and you're

753
00:32:26,562 --> 00:32:29,218
all excited about this new approach you're

754
00:32:29,218 --> 00:32:31,786
going to take with sales, relationship

755
00:32:31,786 --> 00:32:34,898
says, wait, hold on. What is engineering

756
00:32:34,898 --> 00:32:37,042
going to think about this or what impact

757
00:32:37,042 --> 00:32:40,218
is it going to have on them? Because all

758
00:32:40,218 --> 00:32:41,898
those issues are going to come to the

759
00:32:41,898 --> 00:32:43,354
surface eventually. It's just a question

760
00:32:43,354 --> 00:32:47,682
of now or later and how painful and of

761
00:32:47,682 --> 00:32:50,154
course, process is. How, how are we

762
00:32:50,154 --> 00:32:51,562
talking about it? Are we using those

763
00:32:51,562 --> 00:32:53,610
standard questions we talked about? Or are

764
00:32:53,610 --> 00:32:57,122
we saying, what do you think? Are we

765
00:32:57,122 --> 00:33:00,234
typing? Or are we talking? And have we

766
00:33:00,234 --> 00:33:03,082
taken a break because we're at this all

767
00:33:03,082 --> 00:33:06,178
day off site and somehow think that

768
00:33:06,178 --> 00:33:08,362
togetherness is optimal, whereas all of us

769
00:33:08,362 --> 00:33:11,762
are like, we just need a bio break. We

770
00:33:11,762 --> 00:33:13,530
need to go walk around. Are we doing a

771
00:33:13,530 --> 00:33:15,494
walking meeting? All these different

772
00:33:15,494 --> 00:33:18,498
pieces actually impact outcomes and

773
00:33:18,498 --> 00:33:20,218
outcomes, our voice, how we move through

774
00:33:20,218 --> 00:33:23,220
the world. So if you're ever doubting

775
00:33:23,220 --> 00:33:25,316
whether you have anything to add a value,

776
00:33:25,316 --> 00:33:28,220
let me say it. You have value. You have

777
00:33:28,220 --> 00:33:31,252
valuable perspective and you can think

778
00:33:31,252 --> 00:33:33,140
about, are you going to comment or focus

779
00:33:33,140 --> 00:33:35,228
on substance? Are you going to comment or

780
00:33:35,228 --> 00:33:38,028
focus on relationship or comment and focus

781
00:33:38,028 --> 00:33:41,036
on process? Because we need all three. And

782
00:33:41,036 --> 00:33:44,324
all three impact what we end up doing

783
00:33:44,324 --> 00:33:47,916
together or not? That is so insightful.

784
00:33:47,916 --> 00:33:49,500
And as I think about that from somebody

785
00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:51,642
who is, you know, working in a corporation

786
00:33:51,642 --> 00:33:53,082
and has worked in nonprofits in the past

787
00:33:53,082 --> 00:33:56,034
and done a lot of off sites, and those

788
00:33:56,034 --> 00:33:57,538
three elements, I just think they

789
00:33:57,538 --> 00:33:59,114
resonate. They just make sense and they're

790
00:33:59,114 --> 00:34:01,954
not talked about. It's, there's so many

791
00:34:01,954 --> 00:34:04,066
things that aren't talked about and that

792
00:34:04,066 --> 00:34:05,242
you're bringing out in your book. And I

793
00:34:05,242 --> 00:34:07,922
think it's so valuable. And even just when

794
00:34:07,922 --> 00:34:09,450
we think about the cross cultural element

795
00:34:09,450 --> 00:34:10,714
of things, like one of the things, I don't

796
00:34:10,714 --> 00:34:13,546
know if you've ever encountered Erin Meyer

797
00:34:13,546 --> 00:34:14,946
and any of her work, she has this book,

798
00:34:14,946 --> 00:34:17,214
the culture map. Right. And so she's

799
00:34:17,214 --> 00:34:19,358
putting all these cultures on the

800
00:34:19,358 --> 00:34:20,510
spectrum. Right. And one of the ones I

801
00:34:20,510 --> 00:34:21,838
found most fascinating because I read that

802
00:34:21,838 --> 00:34:23,406
when I lived in Singapore and I often

803
00:34:23,406 --> 00:34:25,270
reference it here in my workspace here in

804
00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:28,518
Silicon Valley, is, you know, we have the

805
00:34:28,518 --> 00:34:30,542
whole low context, high context

806
00:34:30,542 --> 00:34:32,190
communication, right. And the US and Japan

807
00:34:32,190 --> 00:34:35,014
are polar opposites. Right. And a lot of

808
00:34:35,014 --> 00:34:37,438
nations around Japan would be on that end

809
00:34:37,438 --> 00:34:39,830
of the spectrum as well. And so, you know,

810
00:34:39,830 --> 00:34:41,686
knowing there's, there's these things like

811
00:34:41,686 --> 00:34:43,526
in japanese language, that's reading the

812
00:34:43,526 --> 00:34:45,864
air, right. And so it's for, like, us

813
00:34:45,864 --> 00:34:48,900
based context that's kind of, it's very

814
00:34:48,900 --> 00:34:50,908
foreign. Right. And so it's like, wait,

815
00:34:50,908 --> 00:34:53,060
there's, there's things in the air I'm

816
00:34:53,060 --> 00:34:55,108
supposed to be hearing. So how. Yeah. What

817
00:34:55,108 --> 00:34:58,380
is your experience with that? Yes, I mean

818
00:34:58,380 --> 00:35:01,556
so much frustration and so much resonance.

819
00:35:01,556 --> 00:35:03,588
And I'll also add another layer, which is

820
00:35:03,588 --> 00:35:07,748
our judgment, our judgment of the way that

821
00:35:07,748 --> 00:35:10,388
someone else does things or a different

822
00:35:10,388 --> 00:35:12,236
culture does things. I know many American

823
00:35:12,236 --> 00:35:14,504
who's like, read the air. That's

824
00:35:14,504 --> 00:35:17,224
ridiculous. Like, I'm so direct and so

825
00:35:17,224 --> 00:35:19,576
clear. Everyone should be like me again,

826
00:35:19,576 --> 00:35:21,640
that is one of the pitfalls of being

827
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,088
human, that we assume because it would

828
00:35:24,088 --> 00:35:26,752
make our lives easier if everyone just

829
00:35:26,752 --> 00:35:29,112
operated like me, they should operate like

830
00:35:29,112 --> 00:35:33,056
me, too, versus, oh, we're different. Then

831
00:35:33,056 --> 00:35:37,120
it begs the question of who gets to decide

832
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,664
if we're in a cross cultural or

833
00:35:39,664 --> 00:35:42,760
multicultural workplace or team, whose

834
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:47,224
culture, what norms prevail? And to me,

835
00:35:47,224 --> 00:35:51,520
the sheer ability to discuss them, to name

836
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,400
the differences, gets us a long way. In

837
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,512
the book, I also talk about three buckets.

838
00:35:58,512 --> 00:36:01,688
In every situation. There's the people who

839
00:36:01,688 --> 00:36:02,976
decide, the people who are consulted and

840
00:36:02,976 --> 00:36:04,664
the people who are informed. And one of

841
00:36:04,664 --> 00:36:07,384
the frustrations about voice is when we

842
00:36:07,384 --> 00:36:09,896
think we're being consulted, but really,

843
00:36:09,896 --> 00:36:12,016
it's a fake consult. Lori, what do you

844
00:36:12,016 --> 00:36:13,232
think? And then Lori's like, blah, blah,

845
00:36:13,232 --> 00:36:15,216
blah, I will share with you. And then you

846
00:36:15,216 --> 00:36:16,760
make the decision. And Lori's like, well,

847
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,392
why? Why did you ask me if you're just, if

848
00:36:18,392 --> 00:36:19,964
you knew what you were going to do

849
00:36:19,964 --> 00:36:22,464
anyways, but being really clear, who

850
00:36:22,464 --> 00:36:24,904
actually decides what the norms are? And

851
00:36:24,904 --> 00:36:27,800
the particularly interesting fact about a

852
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,484
team is that those norms often are co

853
00:36:30,484 --> 00:36:32,840
created. You can have a leader who says,

854
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,168
we're doing things this way, but if people

855
00:36:35,168 --> 00:36:38,496
don't follow, then you don't actually have

856
00:36:38,496 --> 00:36:41,400
a culture, even though leaders have a

857
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,336
disproportionate impact on cultures. So

858
00:36:44,336 --> 00:36:48,232
are we able to name, we operate

859
00:36:48,232 --> 00:36:50,248
differently, and different doesn't mean

860
00:36:50,248 --> 00:36:52,048
bad, different doesn't mean your culture

861
00:36:52,048 --> 00:36:54,392
is worse than mine. But we have different

862
00:36:54,392 --> 00:36:56,440
ways of operating. And then ask the

863
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,536
question, what do we want to do on our

864
00:36:58,536 --> 00:37:02,160
team here? Oftentimes, though, even the

865
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,168
understanding we operate differently helps

866
00:37:04,168 --> 00:37:07,404
us avoid the misinterpretation, the

867
00:37:07,404 --> 00:37:10,336
demonization of your worse or your bad,

868
00:37:10,336 --> 00:37:12,304
or, why don't you do it my way? Versus,

869
00:37:12,304 --> 00:37:14,224
oh, we're different. And then we need to

870
00:37:14,224 --> 00:37:17,704
figure out how we coexist and how we

871
00:37:17,704 --> 00:37:19,768
collaborate in that way. But one of the

872
00:37:19,768 --> 00:37:22,904
pieces of advice in the book is be

873
00:37:22,904 --> 00:37:27,080
explicit about the implicit, which is what

874
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:28,576
you said of, you know, I spoke up and

875
00:37:28,576 --> 00:37:30,120
asked a question and then realized, oh, I

876
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,264
guess we don't actually do things around

877
00:37:33,264 --> 00:37:36,552
that around here. But being explicit

878
00:37:36,552 --> 00:37:41,344
doesn't mean. That you. Have to be direct.

879
00:37:41,344 --> 00:37:44,464
Being explicit means, oh, read the air.

880
00:37:44,464 --> 00:37:47,272
That's what is happening here. Can we name

881
00:37:47,272 --> 00:37:49,720
it? Versus. We often figure out all of

882
00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,480
this by trial and error over time, but it

883
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,684
can be five years and a lot of relational

884
00:37:55,684 --> 00:38:00,040
damage in the process. So, unlearning

885
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,816
silence, to me is, how do we actually

886
00:38:01,816 --> 00:38:04,544
name, from our limited perspective, our

887
00:38:04,544 --> 00:38:06,584
legitimate perspective, what am I

888
00:38:06,584 --> 00:38:07,752
experiencing? What am I noticing? What am

889
00:38:07,752 --> 00:38:10,192
I feeling? What am I concerned about so

890
00:38:10,192 --> 00:38:12,776
that we can actually wrestle with it

891
00:38:12,776 --> 00:38:16,104
rather than tiptoe and bump hard elbows

892
00:38:16,104 --> 00:38:18,600
with each other until we maybe figure it

893
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,408
out? But at that point in time, someone's

894
00:38:20,408 --> 00:38:23,160
already quit, someone's already decided

895
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:28,764
it's not safe here. Well, as we think

896
00:38:28,764 --> 00:38:31,824
about wanting to bring more voices to the

897
00:38:31,824 --> 00:38:33,616
table here on this podcast and knowing

898
00:38:33,616 --> 00:38:36,734
that our differences are not only

899
00:38:36,734 --> 00:38:39,190
celebrated and valuable, but really needed

900
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:40,822
for our world to become a better place.

901
00:38:40,822 --> 00:38:43,654
And that includes corporate America. It

902
00:38:43,654 --> 00:38:45,766
includes the justice system in all

903
00:38:45,766 --> 00:38:47,926
nations. It includes government, includes,

904
00:38:47,926 --> 00:38:49,822
you know, communities, families,

905
00:38:49,822 --> 00:38:54,270
education, every realm you could imagine.

906
00:38:54,270 --> 00:38:55,902
We don't know what we don't know, and

907
00:38:55,902 --> 00:38:58,070
often what we don't know is sitting out

908
00:38:58,070 --> 00:39:00,694
there. And so I guess my last question for

909
00:39:00,694 --> 00:39:03,382
you is, if there's a person listening who

910
00:39:03,382 --> 00:39:05,560
really wants to do this work, they have a

911
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,296
position of power in some way, whether

912
00:39:07,296 --> 00:39:09,992
they lead a small team or a large team,

913
00:39:09,992 --> 00:39:12,304
what is one kind of call to action or

914
00:39:12,304 --> 00:39:14,124
takeaway that you would have them think

915
00:39:14,124 --> 00:39:18,464
through in light of all this conversation?

916
00:39:18,464 --> 00:39:20,328
The question I would be asking is, what

917
00:39:20,328 --> 00:39:26,480
role does silence play on my team? And to

918
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,600
observe it as a neutral third party would.

919
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,376
If you were doing a case study on your

920
00:39:33,376 --> 00:39:36,858
team dynamic, what would you see about

921
00:39:36,858 --> 00:39:39,258
silence and how it's at play? And the

922
00:39:39,258 --> 00:39:41,410
reason I'm suggesting that vantage point

923
00:39:41,410 --> 00:39:45,210
is because there can be a lot of shame or

924
00:39:45,210 --> 00:39:46,906
guilt of, oh, my gosh, I didn't realize I

925
00:39:46,906 --> 00:39:49,122
was silencing this person. And we

926
00:39:49,122 --> 00:39:51,426
associate it with being a bad person, and

927
00:39:51,426 --> 00:39:53,722
then we shut down, which is the last thing

928
00:39:53,722 --> 00:39:55,922
that we want to do to me. And I say this

929
00:39:55,922 --> 00:39:58,914
in the book, so it's in writing, right,

930
00:39:58,914 --> 00:40:02,690
for. For all to see. I am someone who has

931
00:40:02,690 --> 00:40:04,970
been silenced. I am also someone who

932
00:40:04,970 --> 00:40:09,860
silences other people, despite my best

933
00:40:09,860 --> 00:40:13,052
intentions. And the question is not, am I

934
00:40:13,052 --> 00:40:15,420
a good or bad person for doing that, but

935
00:40:15,420 --> 00:40:20,020
am I having the impact that I want? Am I

936
00:40:20,020 --> 00:40:22,316
aligned in how I think I'm showing up and

937
00:40:22,316 --> 00:40:26,020
how I'm actually showing up? And if you

938
00:40:26,020 --> 00:40:28,180
don't know what role silence plays on your

939
00:40:28,180 --> 00:40:29,716
team, number one would invite you to read

940
00:40:29,716 --> 00:40:31,572
the book. And there's sort of a checklist

941
00:40:31,572 --> 00:40:33,984
you can follow of how it might be showing

942
00:40:33,984 --> 00:40:38,780
up. And also, I've tried to write with as

943
00:40:38,780 --> 00:40:41,504
much clarity and compassion as I can

944
00:40:41,504 --> 00:40:44,076
muster because it's going to take all of

945
00:40:44,076 --> 00:40:46,708
us for those changes, but also knowing

946
00:40:46,708 --> 00:40:48,772
that each of us, in our own corners of the

947
00:40:48,772 --> 00:40:51,420
world, across all the industries you

948
00:40:51,420 --> 00:40:53,556
mentioned, we are co creating a different

949
00:40:53,556 --> 00:40:56,108
world, co creating a world in which

950
00:40:56,108 --> 00:40:58,548
belonging, dignity and justice can exist

951
00:40:58,548 --> 00:41:01,436
for every human being, not just for a

952
00:41:01,436 --> 00:41:04,784
privileged few. And our sphere of

953
00:41:04,784 --> 00:41:11,232
influence matters. It absolutely does.

954
00:41:11,232 --> 00:41:13,552
Yes. Bravo. I want to give you a standing

955
00:41:13,552 --> 00:41:17,064
ovation on that one, because, yes, I know

956
00:41:17,064 --> 00:41:18,496
everybody listening that cares about all

957
00:41:18,496 --> 00:41:20,200
the things we're talking about are

958
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:21,296
resonating with what you're saying. And

959
00:41:21,296 --> 00:41:23,744
it's a great call to action to just ask

960
00:41:23,744 --> 00:41:25,656
the question and be very honest. And I

961
00:41:25,656 --> 00:41:27,016
think the part of the book that really

962
00:41:27,016 --> 00:41:29,784
touched me the most was not only you

963
00:41:29,784 --> 00:41:31,760
unpacking how you had been silenced, but

964
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,616
how you silenced others. And I think

965
00:41:33,616 --> 00:41:36,450
that's just the nuance and the reality

966
00:41:36,450 --> 00:41:39,322
that it's not a great posture to say good

967
00:41:39,322 --> 00:41:41,010
guys, bad guys, but there were all a

968
00:41:41,010 --> 00:41:44,186
mixture of good and bad decisions and

969
00:41:44,186 --> 00:41:46,882
silencing and also not silence. I mean, we

970
00:41:46,882 --> 00:41:49,098
do it right sometimes and we get it wrong

971
00:41:49,098 --> 00:41:50,570
a lot of times, but learning from those

972
00:41:50,570 --> 00:41:51,690
mistakes and moving forward and really

973
00:41:51,690 --> 00:41:52,946
having a growth mindset around this, I

974
00:41:52,946 --> 00:41:54,946
think is really helpful. So thank you so

975
00:41:54,946 --> 00:41:57,154
much for this book, for writing it, for

976
00:41:57,154 --> 00:41:59,058
being so wholehearted about it and

977
00:41:59,058 --> 00:42:01,882
vulnerable yourself, but also for giving

978
00:42:01,882 --> 00:42:03,530
us a great call to action here together.

979
00:42:03,530 --> 00:42:06,177
I'm looking forward to seeing how this has

980
00:42:06,177 --> 00:42:08,664
impactful on our audience, who really does

981
00:42:08,664 --> 00:42:11,428
make the world a better place every day.

982
00:42:11,428 --> 00:42:13,436
So thank you for doing that yourself, for

983
00:42:13,436 --> 00:42:15,180
bringing your differences to the table

984
00:42:15,180 --> 00:42:16,716
today and letting us get to know you a

985
00:42:16,716 --> 00:42:18,316
little bit better and helping us all make

986
00:42:18,316 --> 00:42:20,036
a difference together. Elaine, it's been a

987
00:42:20,036 --> 00:42:22,740
joy to talk to you. Likewise. Thanks for

988
00:42:22,740 --> 00:42:26,684
having me, Lori. You're welcome. Bye. I

989
00:42:26,684 --> 00:42:28,852
mentioned that Elaine is our people. And,

990
00:42:28,852 --> 00:42:30,924
you know, I hope that you have felt the

991
00:42:30,924 --> 00:42:33,686
same way that I have just listening to

992
00:42:33,686 --> 00:42:36,634
her. Not only is she such a good

993
00:42:36,634 --> 00:42:39,246
communicator, she's such a deep thinker,

994
00:42:39,246 --> 00:42:41,510
and she brings in perspective from not

995
00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:43,654
only, you know, having been a lecturer at

996
00:42:43,654 --> 00:42:45,990
Harvard Law School, but also having, you

997
00:42:45,990 --> 00:42:47,974
know, worked in and traveled across this

998
00:42:47,974 --> 00:42:50,590
globe and knowing how all of us

999
00:42:50,590 --> 00:42:52,230
communicate so differently, even

1000
00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:54,246
understanding the nuances of how people

1001
00:42:54,246 --> 00:42:55,982
process, you know, in real time in a

1002
00:42:55,982 --> 00:42:57,966
meeting versus needing a little space

1003
00:42:57,966 --> 00:43:00,000
afterwards, understanding the nuances of

1004
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,520
how we have low context and high context

1005
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,920
communication differences from the US

1006
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:07,776
context all the way to Asia and the

1007
00:43:07,776 --> 00:43:09,864
spectrum of what that looks like. Also

1008
00:43:09,864 --> 00:43:12,592
just bringing in, you know, the

1009
00:43:12,592 --> 00:43:14,248
neurodiversity into this conversation

1010
00:43:14,248 --> 00:43:16,384
where, you know, I'm thinking about people

1011
00:43:16,384 --> 00:43:19,536
that I know and care about, my loved ones

1012
00:43:19,536 --> 00:43:22,816
who are not quick processors, you know, I

1013
00:43:22,816 --> 00:43:24,888
know in some. Even she brings in the

1014
00:43:24,888 --> 00:43:26,224
educational system into the conversation

1015
00:43:26,224 --> 00:43:28,350
today and thinking about, we have some of

1016
00:43:28,350 --> 00:43:30,206
these standardized tests. And she unpacks

1017
00:43:30,206 --> 00:43:32,554
this a bit in the book of what it's like

1018
00:43:32,554 --> 00:43:35,366
both in the United States and our public

1019
00:43:35,366 --> 00:43:37,006
schools, but also, I think of Singapore in

1020
00:43:37,006 --> 00:43:39,646
the context there. And I know from my work

1021
00:43:39,646 --> 00:43:43,686
that I do in Taiwan because I recently got

1022
00:43:43,686 --> 00:43:46,254
back from there, and understanding how

1023
00:43:46,254 --> 00:43:48,190
that educational system works, too, that

1024
00:43:48,190 --> 00:43:50,750
so many systems around the world are

1025
00:43:50,750 --> 00:43:53,742
teaching students to process quickly,

1026
00:43:53,742 --> 00:43:57,658
process these things very rapidly, whether

1027
00:43:57,658 --> 00:43:59,970
it's reading comprehension test, how many

1028
00:43:59,970 --> 00:44:01,570
words do you read per minute, how many

1029
00:44:01,570 --> 00:44:03,666
math facts do you do per minute? And, you

1030
00:44:03,666 --> 00:44:08,490
know, quick speed is a high value at the

1031
00:44:08,490 --> 00:44:11,218
expense often of deep thoughtfulness and

1032
00:44:11,218 --> 00:44:12,946
curiosity around how these things are

1033
00:44:12,946 --> 00:44:14,650
happening. So that's what I really

1034
00:44:14,650 --> 00:44:17,050
appreciate so much about Elaine's voice

1035
00:44:17,050 --> 00:44:20,346
and this whole conversation is that she's

1036
00:44:20,346 --> 00:44:22,690
getting more existential with us. We're

1037
00:44:22,690 --> 00:44:25,978
asking not just, you know, what, why, and

1038
00:44:25,978 --> 00:44:28,866
how. And these are things that I just

1039
00:44:28,866 --> 00:44:31,098
think if our world is going to move

1040
00:44:31,098 --> 00:44:34,514
forward in ways where we all are working

1041
00:44:34,514 --> 00:44:37,378
for thriving and flourishing of all human

1042
00:44:37,378 --> 00:44:39,666
beings and respect and dignity and

1043
00:44:39,666 --> 00:44:41,026
belonging and justice and all the things

1044
00:44:41,026 --> 00:44:43,434
that we work for in this community, by

1045
00:44:43,434 --> 00:44:45,026
linking arms and working shoulder to

1046
00:44:45,026 --> 00:44:48,146
shoulder with each other, that if we are

1047
00:44:48,146 --> 00:44:50,066
asking questions and really staying

1048
00:44:50,066 --> 00:44:52,718
curious and creating environments where we

1049
00:44:52,718 --> 00:44:55,822
are bringing the voices to the table and

1050
00:44:55,822 --> 00:44:59,114
creating the really fostering and

1051
00:44:59,114 --> 00:45:03,030
cultivating a space where that can happen

1052
00:45:03,030 --> 00:45:05,374
and understanding the pitfalls and the

1053
00:45:05,374 --> 00:45:07,278
oversights we might have as leaders that

1054
00:45:07,278 --> 00:45:10,182
inhibit those things and as parents, which

1055
00:45:10,182 --> 00:45:13,150
we unpack that as well, then once we can

1056
00:45:13,150 --> 00:45:14,886
overcome these hurdles and obstacles

1057
00:45:14,886 --> 00:45:17,078
together that are both internal and

1058
00:45:17,078 --> 00:45:19,470
external, we are going to see a real shift

1059
00:45:19,470 --> 00:45:22,414
in how much of a difference we are a part

1060
00:45:22,414 --> 00:45:25,566
of making along with others. And I just.

1061
00:45:25,566 --> 00:45:26,998
Once again, I could not recommend this

1062
00:45:26,998 --> 00:45:29,062
book more. When I saw the title, I knew I

1063
00:45:29,062 --> 00:45:32,606
was gonna love it, but I had no idea how

1064
00:45:32,606 --> 00:45:35,230
much it was really gonna teach me and how

1065
00:45:35,230 --> 00:45:36,806
much I was gonna be able to unpack as I

1066
00:45:36,806 --> 00:45:38,126
read it. I think it's the kind of book I'm

1067
00:45:38,126 --> 00:45:41,046
gonna read more than once and still keep.

1068
00:45:41,046 --> 00:45:42,878
Like she says, the title isn't unlearn,

1069
00:45:42,878 --> 00:45:46,534
it's unlearning. It's a process, and I am

1070
00:45:46,534 --> 00:45:49,230
so excited to be on this process and

1071
00:45:49,230 --> 00:45:51,006
journey with each of you. I learned so

1072
00:45:51,006 --> 00:45:54,326
much from you. I just thank you, each of

1073
00:45:54,326 --> 00:45:57,526
you who listened to this podcast, by the

1074
00:45:57,526 --> 00:46:01,062
time you know this releases, you're going

1075
00:46:01,062 --> 00:46:03,254
to be facing so many things around the

1076
00:46:03,254 --> 00:46:04,702
world that are going to have hit the news

1077
00:46:04,702 --> 00:46:05,918
that we didn't even know we're going to

1078
00:46:05,918 --> 00:46:08,214
hit. And there's going to be things that

1079
00:46:08,214 --> 00:46:10,390
we face in our personal lives, our

1080
00:46:10,390 --> 00:46:11,622
professional lives, and in our communities

1081
00:46:11,622 --> 00:46:14,278
that we didn't know was going to happen.

1082
00:46:14,278 --> 00:46:16,814
But when we give space to each other to

1083
00:46:16,814 --> 00:46:19,886
just share our voices, the feelings, the

1084
00:46:19,886 --> 00:46:22,894
facts, the values behind it, our world is

1085
00:46:22,894 --> 00:46:24,846
really going to move forward in ways that

1086
00:46:24,846 --> 00:46:27,710
we need it to, where belonging really

1087
00:46:27,710 --> 00:46:30,222
matters. And we are part of that. I just

1088
00:46:30,222 --> 00:46:31,630
thank you to each of you who listen, who

1089
00:46:31,630 --> 00:46:33,526
share this podcast, who rate and review.

1090
00:46:33,526 --> 00:46:35,030
It makes a world of difference for me, and

1091
00:46:35,030 --> 00:46:38,070
it also allows other people to find us and

1092
00:46:38,070 --> 00:46:40,598
bring their voices in and listen to the

1093
00:46:40,598 --> 00:46:41,950
voices of the different guests that we

1094
00:46:41,950 --> 00:46:44,430
have on. And I do think that Elaine's

1095
00:46:44,430 --> 00:46:46,070
voice, I would like to promote it as much

1096
00:46:46,070 --> 00:46:48,110
as possible. So please share this podcast

1097
00:46:48,110 --> 00:46:50,920
with those who need to know about what

1098
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,184
she's saying to help unleash and help us

1099
00:46:53,184 --> 00:46:55,832
all unlearn the silencing that we've been

1100
00:46:55,832 --> 00:46:57,992
a part of or that has happened to us. And

1101
00:46:57,992 --> 00:47:00,120
it's a journey. It certainly is. I think

1102
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,000
of those of you in the faith community

1103
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,080
where you've had to sign NDAs, even NDAs

1104
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,176
tied to severance, and it was really hard

1105
00:47:09,176 --> 00:47:11,624
to do, to get medical insurance for your

1106
00:47:11,624 --> 00:47:15,262
family in a time that was unexpected. And

1107
00:47:15,262 --> 00:47:17,294
I know that that happens also in the

1108
00:47:17,294 --> 00:47:20,622
corporate space where I work now. And even

1109
00:47:20,622 --> 00:47:22,834
people in journalism have faced those

1110
00:47:22,834 --> 00:47:25,334
things, silencing voices or having been

1111
00:47:25,334 --> 00:47:27,606
silenced. And like she said, chapter three

1112
00:47:27,606 --> 00:47:29,070
is her favorite chapter, because there's

1113
00:47:29,070 --> 00:47:31,710
some times where, you know, you have to be

1114
00:47:31,710 --> 00:47:33,166
silent for a variety of reasons. And I

1115
00:47:33,166 --> 00:47:34,942
think of all of those of you who have been

1116
00:47:34,942 --> 00:47:39,070
in the both hostile work environment space

1117
00:47:39,070 --> 00:47:42,486
or in an abuse situation that you're still

1118
00:47:42,486 --> 00:47:45,270
unpacking. And I know that whistleblowers

1119
00:47:45,270 --> 00:47:49,154
out there, it's hard what you're doing and

1120
00:47:49,154 --> 00:47:50,498
walking through that and building a

1121
00:47:50,498 --> 00:47:52,266
village around you and knowing when

1122
00:47:52,266 --> 00:47:53,834
there's a time to speak and when there's a

1123
00:47:53,834 --> 00:47:55,786
time to be silent for yourself is so

1124
00:47:55,786 --> 00:47:57,754
important. So I do for nothing else.

1125
00:47:57,754 --> 00:47:59,186
Forget the book for chapter three, because

1126
00:47:59,186 --> 00:48:02,050
it's so impactful. And I also just want to

1127
00:48:02,050 --> 00:48:03,810
thank each of you who have reached out to

1128
00:48:03,810 --> 00:48:05,586
me and shared your stories. Personally, I

1129
00:48:05,586 --> 00:48:08,186
get a lot of your stories and I hold them

1130
00:48:08,186 --> 00:48:11,546
and I stay silent about them. For those of

1131
00:48:11,546 --> 00:48:14,514
you who kind of come to me in confidential

1132
00:48:14,514 --> 00:48:16,626
ways, to share about ways that you have

1133
00:48:16,626 --> 00:48:18,514
been silenced in your own workplace or

1134
00:48:18,514 --> 00:48:20,666
faith community, and it means a lot to me

1135
00:48:20,666 --> 00:48:22,330
as a whistleblower who's walked through

1136
00:48:22,330 --> 00:48:24,770
this journey, and it's not been easy, but

1137
00:48:24,770 --> 00:48:27,962
I do want to be a space where you can

1138
00:48:27,962 --> 00:48:29,962
share those things with me. I don't always

1139
00:48:29,962 --> 00:48:32,082
get to respond right away. Some of you

1140
00:48:32,082 --> 00:48:34,174
have been able to meet in person, and

1141
00:48:34,174 --> 00:48:35,866
recently several of you reached out who

1142
00:48:35,866 --> 00:48:38,866
were in the La Orange county area, and I

1143
00:48:38,866 --> 00:48:40,922
was there speaking at podcast movement

1144
00:48:40,922 --> 00:48:43,700
evolution. I got to meet several listeners

1145
00:48:43,700 --> 00:48:46,188
in person, and we schedule different times

1146
00:48:46,188 --> 00:48:48,084
to have coffee together and I just hold

1147
00:48:48,084 --> 00:48:50,988
those stories so, so dear and close to me,

1148
00:48:50,988 --> 00:48:52,692
and it means so much that you would come

1149
00:48:52,692 --> 00:48:54,260
and share those things with you. We shed

1150
00:48:54,260 --> 00:48:58,628
some tears, exchanged hugs, and just had

1151
00:48:58,628 --> 00:49:01,860
moments where we just heard each other.

1152
00:49:01,860 --> 00:49:03,468
And you get to hear my voice quite a bit

1153
00:49:03,468 --> 00:49:04,892
and the voices of the guests that I bring

1154
00:49:04,892 --> 00:49:06,676
on. But it's really such an honor for me

1155
00:49:06,676 --> 00:49:08,460
to hear your voice and meet you in person.

1156
00:49:08,460 --> 00:49:10,476
So thank you to those of you who have

1157
00:49:10,476 --> 00:49:11,956
reached out to me and we've been able to

1158
00:49:11,956 --> 00:49:15,788
make those things work. If any of you are

1159
00:49:15,788 --> 00:49:18,724
in the UK, in the London area, I'll be

1160
00:49:18,724 --> 00:49:20,988
there in April. So if you're there and

1161
00:49:20,988 --> 00:49:22,596
want to reach out and we can make it work,

1162
00:49:22,596 --> 00:49:25,116
would love to just meet you in person if

1163
00:49:25,116 --> 00:49:26,596
we could work that out. But yes, always

1164
00:49:26,596 --> 00:49:27,692
feel free to reach out. You never know

1165
00:49:27,692 --> 00:49:29,300
where I'm going to be traveling to, and it

1166
00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:31,664
might happen. But also, I just want to

1167
00:49:31,664 --> 00:49:34,060
say, you know, thank you for coming into

1168
00:49:34,060 --> 00:49:36,100
this podcast week after week and listening

1169
00:49:36,100 --> 00:49:39,048
and sharing it with others, because we are

1170
00:49:39,048 --> 00:49:41,296
impacting lives one person, one podcast at

1171
00:49:41,296 --> 00:49:43,568
a time as we bring these voices to the

1172
00:49:43,568 --> 00:49:44,968
table. And it really does make a

1173
00:49:44,968 --> 00:49:46,664
difference when you share it with others

1174
00:49:46,664 --> 00:49:49,776
and when you want to interact with me.

1175
00:49:49,776 --> 00:49:53,048
This is my why I do this, for you, to

1176
00:49:53,048 --> 00:49:55,552
bring you these voices that have impacted

1177
00:49:55,552 --> 00:49:57,336
me, whether it's books they've written,

1178
00:49:57,336 --> 00:49:59,320
like Elaine's book, or the work that

1179
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:00,928
they're doing in a variety of ways. I want

1180
00:50:00,928 --> 00:50:02,696
you to know about these individuals that

1181
00:50:02,696 --> 00:50:04,192
have impacted me and made a difference for

1182
00:50:04,192 --> 00:50:07,120
me so that you can also glean from their

1183
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,732
wisdom and their insights, too. All of our

1184
00:50:09,732 --> 00:50:11,004
perspectives coming around the table

1185
00:50:11,004 --> 00:50:13,308
really are forming our world into a better

1186
00:50:13,308 --> 00:50:15,700
place. And I truly believe that. And so,

1187
00:50:15,700 --> 00:50:17,812
yeah, if you have other suggestions for

1188
00:50:17,812 --> 00:50:19,228
people that are impacting you that you

1189
00:50:19,228 --> 00:50:20,876
want to suggest for the show. Always feel

1190
00:50:20,876 --> 00:50:23,836
free to reach out to me. I'm on Twitter

1191
00:50:23,836 --> 00:50:27,012
oreadbr, or you can find me at Instagram

1192
00:50:27,012 --> 00:50:28,516
oriadamsbrown. And feel free to reach out.

1193
00:50:28,516 --> 00:50:32,564
I love to hear from you and what is

1194
00:50:32,564 --> 00:50:34,028
impacting your life. And different guests

1195
00:50:34,028 --> 00:50:36,054
that we have on the show occasionally come

1196
00:50:36,054 --> 00:50:37,866
from suggestions from each of you as

1197
00:50:37,866 --> 00:50:39,354
listeners. So if you're hoping to co

1198
00:50:39,354 --> 00:50:42,066
create this podcast too, and as always, we

1199
00:50:42,066 --> 00:50:44,130
do go a lot deeper in our difference maker

1200
00:50:44,130 --> 00:50:46,050
community. So if you are not there yet,

1201
00:50:46,050 --> 00:50:47,618
you really, I'm sorry, you're missing out.

1202
00:50:47,618 --> 00:50:49,026
I'm just going to say because it is a

1203
00:50:49,026 --> 00:50:51,226
space where we take this to the next level

1204
00:50:51,226 --> 00:50:52,866
with our guests. So we do that with

1205
00:50:52,866 --> 00:50:56,138
Elaine. Here she goes. And we unpack a

1206
00:50:56,138 --> 00:50:58,490
question where I ask her to sort of help

1207
00:50:58,490 --> 00:51:01,290
us understand for all of you out there

1208
00:51:01,290 --> 00:51:02,690
making a difference in the world, what is

1209
00:51:02,690 --> 00:51:05,676
her wisdom advice for those of us who are

1210
00:51:05,676 --> 00:51:08,612
working so hard in spaces that are really

1211
00:51:08,612 --> 00:51:10,212
difficult, and she's interacted with a lot

1212
00:51:10,212 --> 00:51:12,212
of those spaces around the world with her

1213
00:51:12,212 --> 00:51:15,164
work, and so she has some great nuggets to

1214
00:51:15,164 --> 00:51:16,852
share where she unpacks three different

1215
00:51:16,852 --> 00:51:19,332
things about how to, you know, care for

1216
00:51:19,332 --> 00:51:20,820
yourself as a leader, making a difference

1217
00:51:20,820 --> 00:51:23,116
out there and, you know, to avoid burnout

1218
00:51:23,116 --> 00:51:25,324
to work, you know, and resilience for

1219
00:51:25,324 --> 00:51:27,204
yourself and how this whole silencing

1220
00:51:27,204 --> 00:51:30,000
conversation really is impacting people

1221
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:31,536
around the world in these various ways.

1222
00:51:31,536 --> 00:51:33,336
And so you don't want to miss that. So

1223
00:51:33,336 --> 00:51:35,168
we'll release that episode soon in our

1224
00:51:35,168 --> 00:51:37,560
difference maker community, which you can

1225
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,432
join for as little as $5 a month. For an

1226
00:51:40,432 --> 00:51:42,696
entire month, just $5, you can get access

1227
00:51:42,696 --> 00:51:44,928
to all of these previous exclusive

1228
00:51:44,928 --> 00:51:46,256
episodes at whatever interior level you

1229
00:51:46,256 --> 00:51:47,752
end up joining at. So we'd love to have

1230
00:51:47,752 --> 00:51:49,376
you there and also helps support the show.

1231
00:51:49,376 --> 00:51:51,256
So I really appreciate those of you who

1232
00:51:51,256 --> 00:51:52,616
are there because it makes a difference

1233
00:51:52,616 --> 00:51:54,072
for me and being able to produce the show

1234
00:51:54,072 --> 00:51:56,096
and put it out in the world. So please

1235
00:51:56,096 --> 00:52:01,776
join us there at www.patreon.com

1236
00:52:01,776 --> 00:52:03,256
aworldofdifference would love to have you

1237
00:52:03,256 --> 00:52:05,784
join. It's a lot of deep conversation

1238
00:52:05,784 --> 00:52:07,808
there which you really, really resonate

1239
00:52:07,808 --> 00:52:10,360
with. So thank you, everyone, for all the

1240
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:11,696
great work you're doing around the world,

1241
00:52:11,696 --> 00:52:14,040
for just being who you are, for bringing

1242
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,408
your voice to the table, and for being

1243
00:52:16,408 --> 00:52:19,280
silent when it makes sense for you. And

1244
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:20,976
I'd love to know what this conversation

1245
00:52:20,976 --> 00:52:24,192
has meant to you today around unlearning

1246
00:52:24,192 --> 00:52:26,904
silence with Elaine Lin Hering Wherever

1247
00:52:26,904 --> 00:52:29,048
you are and whatever you're facing,

1248
00:52:29,048 --> 00:52:30,936
whatever internal or external obstacles

1249
00:52:30,936 --> 00:52:33,216
are out in front of you today, I hope you

1250
00:52:33,216 --> 00:52:35,592
take a deep breath that you care for

1251
00:52:35,592 --> 00:52:39,568
yourself and that you just know that you

1252
00:52:39,568 --> 00:52:43,368
matter, your voice matters. And you are

1253
00:52:43,368 --> 00:52:47,200
such a person who is valued and loved and

1254
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,680
cared for in this world. And I hope that

1255
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,696
you experience a lot of self compassion

1256
00:52:51,696 --> 00:52:53,480
for yourself today and a lot of kindness

1257
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,286
towards yourself and others as you make

1258
00:52:56,286 --> 00:52:58,822
the world a better place. So keep making a