Dr. Julie Faith Parker on Eve Isn't Evil: Feminist Readings of Misunderstood Bible Characters

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Welcome to the a World of Difference

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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is

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a podcast for those who are different and

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want to make a difference. I know many of

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Today on the podcast we have a very

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exciting guest, Dr. Julie Faith Parker.

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Julie has written an incredible book that

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I have devoured called Eve isn't evil

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feminist readings of the Bible to upend

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our assumptions. Julie is incredible in

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terms of just she speaks and has studied

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eleven languages, mostly ancient. She

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enjoys speaking French and Spanish, but

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she's also a scholar. She's actually a

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visiting scholar at Union Theological

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Seminary and a biblical scholar in

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residence at Marble Collegiate Church,

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both in New York City. She was awarded a

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PhD with distinction in Old Testament

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Hebrew Bible from Yale University. She

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holds degrees from Hamilton College, Union

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theological seminary in New York City

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where she got her MDiV and Yale Divinity

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School. She lived during her studies in

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Paris while she was studying art history

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and in Costa Rica studying liberation

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theology. Her research interests focus on

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children in the Bible and feminist

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biblical interpretation, as well as near

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eastern languages and cultures. She's

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published many articles and written or

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edited eight books. Her teaching includes

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her role as professor of biblical studies

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at schools including General Theological

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Seminary there in New York City and

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Trinity Lutheran Seminary in Ohio as well

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as Colby College up in Maine, in addition

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to teaching at New York Theological

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Seminary, where her students were

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incarcerated in Sing Singh prison. And she

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writes about that in her book. Very

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excited to talk to her about that today.

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She's an ordained minister in the United

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Methodist Church, and Dr. Parker has

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worked full time in both congregational

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and campus ministry. I'm so thrilled to

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have her on the show today and for us to

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get to know her a little bit better

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together. So welcome to the show, Dr.

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Julie Faith Parker. Hello, Julie. And a

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very warm welcome to the. Awor of

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Difference podcast today. Thank you so

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much, Lori. I'm really delighted to be

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here. Yes, I'm delighted because I've

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really enjoyed. Your book Eve isn't evil,

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which is an incredible title, by the way.

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And I've really enjoyed reading your words

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and just your thoughtful process of both

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personal narrative as well as just the

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biblical text that you engage with. Even

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just some of the illustrations you have

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towards the back, especially, and even

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just leaning us toward curiosity as the

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book finishes. So I really hope people get

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their hands on your book. But today we're

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going to talk a little bit about it, why

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you wrote it, and what you're hoping the

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world kind of understands from your book.

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So your recent book, it helps readers

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understand the biblical world, which was

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certainly a world or many worlds away from

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the world we live in now. I mean, when we

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think about, even when you, it's very

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clear in the illustrations you include,

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the world that we're reading about is very

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different than the world we live in. And

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so I think that some of our western

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readers tend to, and I had the same

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discussion with Dr. Scott McKnight about

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his recent translation of the New

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Testament. Sometimes we read the

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scriptures here. I'm talking us based

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California, New York, wherever we are, and

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we think we're reading about our neighbor

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Amanda or whatever. But you're helping us

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understand. We need to keep in mind these

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are ancient texts right in the Bible that

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we're reading about. Help us understand

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why that's important and what your

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perspective is on all that. Sure. Perhaps

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you've heard the saying, the past is a

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foreign country. They do things

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differently there. I think because the

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Bible is so. Familiar to many of us, or

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certainly many of the stories, even though

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we don't read the Bible, we know a lot of

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those stories. We tend to make it more

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familiar. Than it actually should be

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because it is such a different culture. It

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was a tribal society. The world of

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biblical Israel was age integrated. For

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example, today, if you're a modern

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academic. You can go through decades of

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your life without a substantial

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conversation with a. Child unless you have

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children in your family circle. Not so in

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the biblical world. Children and adults

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were together all of the time. We see this

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in some of the vocabulary, how different

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it was. There's no word in the Hebrew

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Bible. For privacy, for example. There's

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no word for individual, for example. There

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is no word for religion because it's just

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life. There's no word for atheists, not

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adoption. So it's just a different way of

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thinking. Another example is there's no

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talk about. Race because the concept of

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race doesn't exist. It's a much late. I

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mean, there's lots of discrimination, but

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usually it's on the basis of where you're

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from, or perhaps class. But something as

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superficial as skin color. Is never

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brought up in the scriptures because this

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race is a much later economic concept that

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was created by people. Of Europeans

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descent to exploit and systematically.

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Torture people of african descent. It has

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nothing to do with the. Bible, and so it's

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also more egalitarian than we tend to

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think. Carol Myers is a scholar who

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taught. At duke for many years. And when

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she was president of the Society of

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Biblical Literature, she gave a paper. Her

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presidential address was ancient Israel, a

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patriarchal society. And her answer was

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basically no, because it was so integrated

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and men and women were really dependent

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upon each. Thing, just one other thing to

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mention. It also comes at the same time,

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it comes through a fairly elitist lens.

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Because very few people could read and

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write in the ancient world. Most people

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probably never saw a written word in their

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entire lives and didn't really affect

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them. So these are all such huge cultural.

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Differences that we often forget about

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when. We read the Bible. But I think

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they're really important, especially. This

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elitist lens, because there are certain.

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Power dynamics that are ingrained in the

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text itself, and it helps be aware of

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them. Yes, the power dynamics, I feel

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like, is the conversation to have with

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american white evangelicals in particular

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right now. And I feel like sometimes a

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broken record bringing it up. But it is

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from my own background studying sociology.

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It was something that just sort of gave me

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a lens to see the world in a different

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way. And then I think for those who have

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read the Bible in other languages and

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those languages having primarily a lens of

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oppression as opposed to empire, and

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there's been a lot of conversation around

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this that there is a different nuance

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there. So tell us about your work as a

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Bible scholar. You've learned many

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different languages. Let us know what

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languages you studied and how they offer

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you insights on the scripture as well.

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Well, like you, I love to travel. And I

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love to study languages. I feel like it's

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such a window onto the world. Modern

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languages. I've studied French. I lived in

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Paris studying art history. I lived in

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Central America studying liberation

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theology. So French and Spanish also know

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some. German and some modern Hebrew. But

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it's really ancient languages where I

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spend more of my time. That, of course, is

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Hebrew and Greek. Aramaic, I've taught

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eugeritic. I've taught akadian. I've

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studied syriac and some Latin. So that

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Bible is a very linguistic field. I've

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studied eleven languages. That's not

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uncommon at all. But I tell my students

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when I teach Hebrew that this is your

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ticket. Into the mind of Moses. If you

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learn Aramaic, this is your. Ticket into

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the mind of Jesus and. Hebrew as well,

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because those were his scriptures. But you

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really get such a better understanding of

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how people think and what is important to

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them through the vocabulary, right? The

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vocabulary of a culture tells you. So much

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about it, it actually shapes our

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perception. The classic example, of

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course, is the innovate people. And

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they're, what, 50 some od words for snow?

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Whereas I just see white, flaky stuff here

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in Manhattan. It's like, oh, it's snow. Or

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color is another great example. The more

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words you have for different colors, the

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more colors you actually see. And so when

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we read the biblical. Text, if you could

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do it in original languages, you learn so

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much about. How people were thinking. And

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also you're not subject to the. Vagaries

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of the translators. I shouldn't say

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vagaries, I should say decisions. But to

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translate is always to interpret. And as

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someone who interprets the Bible for my

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own work, sometimes it's just. Amazing to

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me, read appalling some of the decisions

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that have been made, particularly

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regarding women. Oh, my goodness, yes,

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absolutely. I think that some of the

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listeners will absolutely relate to that.

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It could be new for some people listening.

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But I do remember when I had the

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realization many years ago, back when I

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was living in Singapore, that even though

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the majority of my colleagues in the

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mission agency where I work, which was

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southern Baptist, would be reading the,

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you know, it was one of those, you go to

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these annual meetings, people have the

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ESV. So you think, oh, that must be a good

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translation. So you buy it, you start

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reading it, and suddenly you realize, wow,

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right? I mean, you don't realize how

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you're being inundated with translation.

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00:10:42,906 --> 00:10:44,506
And when I finally realized that this is

264
00:10:44,506 --> 00:10:46,790
an unabashedly complimentarian

265
00:10:46,790 --> 00:10:48,218
translation. I think those are their

266
00:10:48,218 --> 00:10:51,662
actual words. Right. I switched to the CEB

267
00:10:51,662 --> 00:10:53,326
because it just was like, I need something

268
00:10:53,326 --> 00:10:56,222
that has some women translators, not just

269
00:10:56,222 --> 00:10:58,606
white translators, too, but, like, african

270
00:10:58,606 --> 00:11:01,914
american, asian American, Latinos who help

271
00:11:01,914 --> 00:11:04,878
translate this, that those interpreters

272
00:11:04,878 --> 00:11:06,546
matter, because I totally agree. Any of us

273
00:11:06,546 --> 00:11:07,986
who speak multiple languages, and many of

274
00:11:07,986 --> 00:11:10,466
our listeners do understand translators,

275
00:11:10,466 --> 00:11:12,786
are making choices. So could you share a

276
00:11:12,786 --> 00:11:15,522
little bit about how these cross cultural

277
00:11:15,522 --> 00:11:17,526
experiences you've had, both in travel and

278
00:11:17,526 --> 00:11:20,440
just being abroad, studying abroad, and

279
00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,866
how they're relevant to these different

280
00:11:22,866 --> 00:11:27,622
books in the Bible? Sure. So I share a

281
00:11:27,622 --> 00:11:30,146
couple of stories in the book. It's a

282
00:11:30,146 --> 00:11:32,154
combination of academic knowledge and.

283
00:11:32,154 --> 00:11:35,274
Some very personal stories. And so I share

284
00:11:35,274 --> 00:11:37,254
some stories about. Times when I was

285
00:11:37,254 --> 00:11:38,874
abroad, because, as. You know, when you

286
00:11:38,874 --> 00:11:40,474
get out of. Your comfort zone, you're

287
00:11:40,474 --> 00:11:42,814
really on the growth edge. And so if you

288
00:11:42,814 --> 00:11:45,070
put yourself in a foreign culture,

289
00:11:45,070 --> 00:11:46,990
especially where they speak. Another

290
00:11:46,990 --> 00:11:49,166
language, you're going to be changed in

291
00:11:49,166 --> 00:11:54,122
some sort of way. And my hope is that more

292
00:11:54,122 --> 00:11:56,938
Americans will learn more languages. It's

293
00:11:56,938 --> 00:11:58,946
very easy to travel as an american and

294
00:11:58,946 --> 00:12:00,914
just speak English. And I think there's a

295
00:12:00,914 --> 00:12:03,394
real loss because you don't get to know

296
00:12:03,394 --> 00:12:06,946
people in the same kind of way. I, like

297
00:12:06,946 --> 00:12:08,626
you, have put myself in. These situations

298
00:12:08,626 --> 00:12:11,826
where I've really had to. Make my way

299
00:12:11,826 --> 00:12:13,462
feeling like the foreigner. And that's

300
00:12:13,462 --> 00:12:16,166
very educational as well, because I was.

301
00:12:16,166 --> 00:12:19,306
But some of these experiences I share. In

302
00:12:19,306 --> 00:12:22,954
the book on psalms called guns and psalms,

303
00:12:22,954 --> 00:12:26,122
I talk about how the psalms really speak

304
00:12:26,122 --> 00:12:30,214
to all of our emotions, unabashedly

305
00:12:30,214 --> 00:12:32,414
unafraid. And one of the emotions that

306
00:12:32,414 --> 00:12:36,474
they speak about is fear and how. I was in

307
00:12:36,474 --> 00:12:40,686
Nicaragua. I was in a town called Esteli,

308
00:12:40,686 --> 00:12:42,862
and I was going north to a small town

309
00:12:42,862 --> 00:12:45,646
called Hondaga. And the only way to get

310
00:12:45,646 --> 00:12:48,154
from. One place to another then was to

311
00:12:48,154 --> 00:12:50,478
hitchhike. Now, I need to add, I'm not a

312
00:12:50,478 --> 00:12:51,906
hitchhiker. This is not something I do in

313
00:12:51,906 --> 00:12:53,986
my real life. But it was the only way to.

314
00:12:53,986 --> 00:12:55,586
Get from one place to another. So here I

315
00:12:55,586 --> 00:12:57,426
was, this 20 something woman, by myself in

316
00:12:57,426 --> 00:12:59,494
a foreign country with a war going on. Oh,

317
00:12:59,494 --> 00:13:01,446
yes, let me throw that in. The war was

318
00:13:01,446 --> 00:13:05,078
going on, but I. Was convinced I needed to

319
00:13:05,078 --> 00:13:06,546
get to. This town to help out with this

320
00:13:06,546 --> 00:13:08,054
woman's construction team building a

321
00:13:08,054 --> 00:13:11,266
school. And so I hitchhiked, and I was.

322
00:13:11,266 --> 00:13:13,702
Waiting for a couple of hours in the hot

323
00:13:13,702 --> 00:13:15,498
tropical sun because everybody was. There

324
00:13:15,498 --> 00:13:17,526
was a mile along the stretch. Of mile

325
00:13:17,526 --> 00:13:19,466
stretch along the pan american highway,

326
00:13:19,466 --> 00:13:22,620
and there were scores of people lined up

327
00:13:22,620 --> 00:13:25,418
there. And finally this military truck

328
00:13:25,418 --> 00:13:29,006
pulled over and loud, a number of people.

329
00:13:29,006 --> 00:13:30,542
There were some soldiers nearby. They got

330
00:13:30,542 --> 00:13:32,446
on, and a number of. Us civilians got on

331
00:13:32,446 --> 00:13:35,278
as well. And we're driving along the pan

332
00:13:35,278 --> 00:13:38,158
american. Highway, and all of a sudden I

333
00:13:38,158 --> 00:13:40,722
realized, gosh, maybe it wasn't such a.

334
00:13:40,722 --> 00:13:42,626
Great idea to get on this military truck

335
00:13:42,626 --> 00:13:43,906
with armed personnel as we're going

336
00:13:43,906 --> 00:13:46,662
through this enemy territory. And then it

337
00:13:46,662 --> 00:13:49,206
got really tense because. The soldiers put

338
00:13:49,206 --> 00:13:52,646
on their guns and. The truck slowed down

339
00:13:52,646 --> 00:13:55,734
and they started shooting. And this whole

340
00:13:55,734 --> 00:13:58,022
time, Lori, what am I thinking of? I'm

341
00:13:58,022 --> 00:14:00,922
thinking of, of course, my old. Testament

342
00:14:00,922 --> 00:14:03,238
class, because I'm remembering my

343
00:14:03,238 --> 00:14:05,578
professor. Dr. Phyllis Tribble, from whom

344
00:14:05,578 --> 00:14:07,706
I learned. At union theological Seminary.

345
00:14:07,706 --> 00:14:09,946
And she was talking about psalm 121. And

346
00:14:09,946 --> 00:14:12,566
she said, people think of this psalm. I

347
00:14:12,566 --> 00:14:14,646
lift my knives to the hills. From whence

348
00:14:14,646 --> 00:14:17,290
cometh my help. She said, no, that's

349
00:14:17,290 --> 00:14:18,766
animism, looking to. The hills for help.

350
00:14:18,766 --> 00:14:20,206
Like the Nietzsche has a soldier. That's

351
00:14:20,206 --> 00:14:22,558
not it. It's really, I lift my knives to

352
00:14:22,558 --> 00:14:25,626
the hills. Parentheses, there are enemy

353
00:14:25,626 --> 00:14:27,966
soldiers in those hills from whence cometh

354
00:14:27,966 --> 00:14:29,986
my help. My help comes from the Lord who.

355
00:14:29,986 --> 00:14:31,918
Made heaven and earth. So while the

356
00:14:31,918 --> 00:14:33,170
shooting is going on. I'm thinking to

357
00:14:33,170 --> 00:14:35,006
myself, I lift my. Eyes to the hills

358
00:14:35,006 --> 00:14:36,898
whence cometh my help. My help comes the

359
00:14:36,898 --> 00:14:38,806
Lord who made heaven and earth. Then all

360
00:14:38,806 --> 00:14:42,018
of a sudden, I hear. One soldier yell,

361
00:14:42,018 --> 00:14:45,734
Lotango. Lotango. The shooting stops. I

362
00:14:45,734 --> 00:14:48,710
see him in the hillside, and he pulls

363
00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:51,026
something, and he's coming back down

364
00:14:51,026 --> 00:14:53,462
toward the truck. And I'm sure he is

365
00:14:53,462 --> 00:14:56,326
carrying a dead soldier's gun. But it

366
00:14:56,326 --> 00:15:00,150
turns out what he has in his hand is an

367
00:15:00,150 --> 00:15:02,454
iguana. They were sport hunting for

368
00:15:02,454 --> 00:15:04,478
iguana, which Nicaraguans like to eat. But

369
00:15:04,478 --> 00:15:06,894
the whole time I thought I might die. So

370
00:15:06,894 --> 00:15:08,926
in retrospect, it's a little funny, but

371
00:15:08,926 --> 00:15:13,066
the fear was real, and it just was a real

372
00:15:13,066 --> 00:15:15,006
cultural experience, but at the same time,

373
00:15:15,006 --> 00:15:17,282
a really insightful biblical experience,

374
00:15:17,282 --> 00:15:19,890
because I was using the. Psalms the way

375
00:15:19,890 --> 00:15:21,886
people have used the. Psalms for

376
00:15:21,886 --> 00:15:24,066
millennia, to feel a connection. With God,

377
00:15:24,066 --> 00:15:26,390
to feel this sense of worship when you're

378
00:15:26,390 --> 00:15:28,614
away from a place of worship. And we can

379
00:15:28,614 --> 00:15:34,310
all use the psalms that night. Yeah, the

380
00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:38,166
psalms. It's just such a special book all

381
00:15:38,166 --> 00:15:42,186
by itself. Just take that one part out and

382
00:15:42,186 --> 00:15:44,554
to measure the impact would be innumerable

383
00:15:44,554 --> 00:15:46,986
on so many cultures and lives throughout

384
00:15:46,986 --> 00:15:50,026
the know, thousands of, you know, for me

385
00:15:50,026 --> 00:15:52,106
in my recent history, although for me,

386
00:15:52,106 --> 00:15:53,406
when I think of the psalms, the first

387
00:15:53,406 --> 00:15:56,394
thing I think of is singing the salmons in

388
00:15:56,394 --> 00:15:58,266
Spanish. Growing up in church in

389
00:15:58,266 --> 00:16:01,674
Venezuela, because a lot of our worship

390
00:16:01,674 --> 00:16:04,954
songs were just direct taken out of the

391
00:16:04,954 --> 00:16:07,806
scripture and put to latino style music,

392
00:16:07,806 --> 00:16:10,014
right? And so there would be a lot of hip

393
00:16:10,014 --> 00:16:12,082
swaying. And there was a woman in front of

394
00:16:12,082 --> 00:16:14,174
me often when I was a kid, and she was an

395
00:16:14,174 --> 00:16:16,626
Amazon woman. And so even my eye level was

396
00:16:16,626 --> 00:16:18,086
right at her rear end, and her rear would

397
00:16:18,086 --> 00:16:20,086
go back and forth, swaying to the psalms.

398
00:16:20,086 --> 00:16:23,158
And so I think of this embodied version of

399
00:16:23,158 --> 00:16:26,822
actual dancing and freedom. And like you

400
00:16:26,822 --> 00:16:28,246
mentioned, liberation theology. I think a

401
00:16:28,246 --> 00:16:31,914
lot of my theology was formed by that, as

402
00:16:31,914 --> 00:16:34,838
well as the songs we sang about different

403
00:16:34,838 --> 00:16:37,754
types of liberation and how captives are

404
00:16:37,754 --> 00:16:40,114
set free and how oppressive governments or

405
00:16:40,114 --> 00:16:44,046
corrupt governments can make life hard.

406
00:16:44,046 --> 00:16:45,966
And so those were the realities of growing

407
00:16:45,966 --> 00:16:48,830
up in Latin America. But in a more recent

408
00:16:48,830 --> 00:16:52,430
sense, having walked through spiritual

409
00:16:52,430 --> 00:16:55,082
abuse on a staff at a church here in

410
00:16:55,082 --> 00:16:58,446
Silicon Valley, it was being away from the

411
00:16:58,446 --> 00:17:00,466
walls of the church, being on the cliffs

412
00:17:00,466 --> 00:17:02,766
in Santa Cruz, watching the ocean, and

413
00:17:02,766 --> 00:17:05,890
reading the psalms that helped me connect

414
00:17:05,890 --> 00:17:09,034
with God and the rescuing help. Like the

415
00:17:09,034 --> 00:17:11,286
Ezer. Right, the kind of God that rescues

416
00:17:11,286 --> 00:17:13,990
us when we're desperate for help. It gave

417
00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:16,274
me a depth to my understanding of the

418
00:17:16,274 --> 00:17:18,534
psalms that I had, and it connected me of

419
00:17:18,534 --> 00:17:22,586
a history of both Christianity and also

420
00:17:22,586 --> 00:17:24,346
the history of what it must have meant for

421
00:17:24,346 --> 00:17:26,314
the writers of the psalms to write these

422
00:17:26,314 --> 00:17:29,318
things. And I think that you mentioned

423
00:17:29,318 --> 00:17:32,446
earlier, being an individual, it's not a

424
00:17:32,446 --> 00:17:35,674
part of many cultures. It's a very western

425
00:17:35,674 --> 00:17:37,930
focused concept. But my experience in

426
00:17:37,930 --> 00:17:40,494
Indonesia, Singapore, Venezuela, growing

427
00:17:40,494 --> 00:17:42,826
up was not about being an individual

428
00:17:42,826 --> 00:17:44,750
Christian as much as it was being in

429
00:17:44,750 --> 00:17:47,586
community. And the psalms helped me feel

430
00:17:47,586 --> 00:17:49,314
to be a part of that community. And so I

431
00:17:49,314 --> 00:17:51,310
agree. There's something so deep about the

432
00:17:51,310 --> 00:17:53,806
song psalms. You also have. One of my

433
00:17:53,806 --> 00:17:56,958
favorite chapters in your book is about

434
00:17:56,958 --> 00:18:01,222
teaching at Sing Singh maximum prison. And

435
00:18:01,222 --> 00:18:03,234
your chapter has to do with the song of

436
00:18:03,234 --> 00:18:05,186
psalms. And sing, sing. It's almost like a

437
00:18:05,186 --> 00:18:08,214
tongue twister to say the chapter title

438
00:18:08,214 --> 00:18:10,642
you taught, and I can only imagine the

439
00:18:10,642 --> 00:18:12,006
fear. You kind of walk through that in the

440
00:18:12,006 --> 00:18:13,914
book a little bit. Prisons really are,

441
00:18:13,914 --> 00:18:15,178
though, a different world from what most

442
00:18:15,178 --> 00:18:17,146
of us know in our daily lives. So what was

443
00:18:17,146 --> 00:18:19,398
it like for you to teach there at Singh

444
00:18:19,398 --> 00:18:21,406
Singh Maximum security prison? What did

445
00:18:21,406 --> 00:18:23,870
you learn, and how do these insights

446
00:18:23,870 --> 00:18:26,974
inform your own reading of the Bible? I

447
00:18:26,974 --> 00:18:31,102
really loved it. Lori. Again, it was a

448
00:18:31,102 --> 00:18:32,906
very different context. From anything I'd

449
00:18:32,906 --> 00:18:35,546
known before. I didn't know anyone

450
00:18:35,546 --> 00:18:37,726
previously who was incarcerated. I think

451
00:18:37,726 --> 00:18:41,006
I'd been to a prison once on a trip with a

452
00:18:41,006 --> 00:18:43,042
church. Group, but I really knew so little

453
00:18:43,042 --> 00:18:45,474
about it. But I honestly believe that God

454
00:18:45,474 --> 00:18:48,434
just. Put it on my heart because I just

455
00:18:48,434 --> 00:18:51,410
felt deeply compelled to teach inside of

456
00:18:51,410 --> 00:18:54,054
prison. And so after some persistence, I

457
00:18:54,054 --> 00:18:56,006
was able to teach, which I really wanted

458
00:18:56,006 --> 00:18:58,834
to do. I was able to teach with New York

459
00:18:58,834 --> 00:19:01,098
Theological Seminary. They're located here

460
00:19:01,098 --> 00:19:02,746
in Manhattan, but they have a program.

461
00:19:02,746 --> 00:19:05,142
They call it their north campus Sing Singh

462
00:19:05,142 --> 00:19:07,690
prison, and it's the only master's degree

463
00:19:07,690 --> 00:19:10,454
program within New York City. And it's a

464
00:19:10,454 --> 00:19:12,620
wonderful program. It's a very competitive

465
00:19:12,620 --> 00:19:15,086
program. I think they had 54 men apply.

466
00:19:15,086 --> 00:19:17,326
For 13 seats, something like that. So they

467
00:19:17,326 --> 00:19:19,262
were really good students, and they all

468
00:19:19,262 --> 00:19:22,058
wanted to be there. And the volunteer

469
00:19:22,058 --> 00:19:23,486
coordinator, when I was. Undergoing my

470
00:19:23,486 --> 00:19:25,186
training, she said, this is. The cream of

471
00:19:25,186 --> 00:19:27,714
the prison problem, and I believe that. So

472
00:19:27,714 --> 00:19:29,586
in some ways, what I'm sharing. Is very

473
00:19:29,586 --> 00:19:32,466
much from my own limited perspective. I

474
00:19:32,466 --> 00:19:35,234
know that people have had much. Harder,

475
00:19:35,234 --> 00:19:37,278
much more difficult experiences as

476
00:19:37,278 --> 00:19:39,386
chaplains. And as directions on site

477
00:19:39,386 --> 00:19:42,758
prison. But for me, it was really joyful.

478
00:19:42,758 --> 00:19:45,734
It was really joyful. I just loved talking

479
00:19:45,734 --> 00:19:48,166
about the scriptures with these men. They

480
00:19:48,166 --> 00:19:50,418
did all the reading. They had the time,

481
00:19:50,418 --> 00:19:51,770
they did all the reading. So they were

482
00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:55,258
really excellent students, two of them in

483
00:19:55,258 --> 00:19:57,514
particular. Honestly, if they'd been born

484
00:19:57,514 --> 00:19:59,414
into another. Life, they would have been

485
00:19:59,414 --> 00:20:01,626
professors, I think. They were so bright.

486
00:20:01,626 --> 00:20:03,646
They were such good writers. And actually,

487
00:20:03,646 --> 00:20:05,694
I have another book, my so called Biblical

488
00:20:05,694 --> 00:20:08,926
Life, in which I. Published their essays,

489
00:20:08,926 --> 00:20:11,278
their class essays, and. That was part of

490
00:20:11,278 --> 00:20:13,486
my motivation for. That book, because I

491
00:20:13,486 --> 00:20:14,574
wanted to get. Their names out in the

492
00:20:14,574 --> 00:20:16,606
world in. A positive way, not just their

493
00:20:16,606 --> 00:20:19,026
crimes or help to do that. They've done a

494
00:20:19,026 --> 00:20:22,706
lot themselves, too. But some of the

495
00:20:22,706 --> 00:20:25,234
things that I. Learned were, one, I really

496
00:20:25,234 --> 00:20:27,574
try not. To speak of prisoners. I try to

497
00:20:27,574 --> 00:20:30,630
speak of people who've been incarcerated,

498
00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:33,206
because these men were, as I said, they

499
00:20:33,206 --> 00:20:35,266
were just born into. Really difficult

500
00:20:35,266 --> 00:20:37,426
situations of poverty and gang ridden

501
00:20:37,426 --> 00:20:39,110
neighborhoods. And if I'm honest with

502
00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:41,014
myself, if I'd been born into a

503
00:20:41,014 --> 00:20:42,346
neighborhood like. That, I know my life

504
00:20:42,346 --> 00:20:44,186
would be really different. And if I were

505
00:20:44,186 --> 00:20:47,946
in that pipeline. Of sending men of color

506
00:20:47,946 --> 00:20:51,774
to prison, who knows? Really? Who knows?

507
00:20:51,774 --> 00:20:54,574
But another thing that happened through

508
00:20:54,574 --> 00:20:57,326
that experience was I really learned to

509
00:20:57,326 --> 00:21:00,170
know the Bible better. I just started

510
00:21:00,170 --> 00:21:02,846
noticing all the people who commit crimes

511
00:21:02,846 --> 00:21:07,030
in the Bible. So we have Cain, okay,

512
00:21:07,030 --> 00:21:09,470
that's Genesis four. He murders his

513
00:21:09,470 --> 00:21:10,786
brother, okay? So we don't have to get

514
00:21:10,786 --> 00:21:12,146
very far. And in the same chapter, you

515
00:21:12,146 --> 00:21:14,558
have. Lamech who says he murders someone.

516
00:21:14,558 --> 00:21:16,450
That's two murders, right away, chapter

517
00:21:16,450 --> 00:21:18,438
four. But what does God do with Cain? Put

518
00:21:18,438 --> 00:21:20,806
a mark on him to protect him. And then we

519
00:21:20,806 --> 00:21:23,206
get to Exodus, chapter two. I think it's

520
00:21:23,206 --> 00:21:27,554
just two verses, 1112. But Moses, after he

521
00:21:27,554 --> 00:21:30,198
grows up, he. Sees an Egyptian beating a

522
00:21:30,198 --> 00:21:32,506
Hebrew. He looks this way and that kills

523
00:21:32,506 --> 00:21:34,714
the Egyptian, buries him in the sand and

524
00:21:34,714 --> 00:21:38,022
then flees. So that's murder. A crime of

525
00:21:38,022 --> 00:21:41,398
passion perhaps, but he's a murderer and

526
00:21:41,398 --> 00:21:44,106
he's a fugitive. That's Moses. We're in

527
00:21:44,106 --> 00:21:46,702
chapter two of Exodus. If you take him,

528
00:21:46,702 --> 00:21:49,226
you lock him up, throw away the key. The

529
00:21:49,226 --> 00:21:51,114
Bible's done, Lori. Okay. We're only in

530
00:21:51,114 --> 00:21:53,680
Exodus, chapter two. That's the end of the

531
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,266
story. And then, of course, we have David.

532
00:21:57,266 --> 00:22:00,322
So David's name means beloved. He is

533
00:22:00,322 --> 00:22:02,046
probably the most beloved character in the

534
00:22:02,046 --> 00:22:03,486
Hebrew Bible. He's certainly the character

535
00:22:03,486 --> 00:22:05,214
who's named the most. I believe it's over

536
00:22:05,214 --> 00:22:08,258
1000 times. And he is a premeditated

537
00:22:08,258 --> 00:22:10,434
murderer. He breaks half of the ten

538
00:22:10,434 --> 00:22:13,266
commandments, he takes another man's wife,

539
00:22:13,266 --> 00:22:15,702
commits adultery. And then really works

540
00:22:15,702 --> 00:22:19,602
hard to have Uriah killed. So he's a

541
00:22:19,602 --> 00:22:21,306
premeditated murderer. Then you get to the

542
00:22:21,306 --> 00:22:22,874
New Testament. Who are the two most famous

543
00:22:22,874 --> 00:22:26,774
people there? Jesus and Paul. Jesus is

544
00:22:26,774 --> 00:22:29,046
brought up for the crime. Of treason and

545
00:22:29,046 --> 00:22:30,942
he's executed as a criminal in the worst

546
00:22:30,942 --> 00:22:33,514
possible way through crucifixion. And Paul

547
00:22:33,514 --> 00:22:36,746
writes a number of his. Letters from

548
00:22:36,746 --> 00:22:39,434
Philemon, of Philippians, of the authentic

549
00:22:39,434 --> 00:22:43,186
polling letters. So these people, whom we

550
00:22:43,186 --> 00:22:46,478
would see as criminals, are heroes of the

551
00:22:46,478 --> 00:22:48,690
Bible. Really, the superstars, the four

552
00:22:48,690 --> 00:22:52,286
top people. Of the entire Bible, are all

553
00:22:52,286 --> 00:22:56,322
criminals. And so I think that helps me.

554
00:22:56,322 --> 00:22:58,786
To maybe be a little less quick. To judge

555
00:22:58,786 --> 00:23:01,186
folks who are incarcerated because we

556
00:23:01,186 --> 00:23:04,210
don't remember Moses, David, Jesus and

557
00:23:04,210 --> 00:23:06,118
Paul for the worst thing that they've ever

558
00:23:06,118 --> 00:23:10,090
done. We give them another chance, right?

559
00:23:10,090 --> 00:23:14,554
Yeah, we do. It is interesting to hear you

560
00:23:14,554 --> 00:23:17,146
say it that way, even after having read

561
00:23:17,146 --> 00:23:19,546
what you wrote. And I think about, like,

562
00:23:19,546 --> 00:23:22,814
my Father for many years was a chaplain in

563
00:23:22,814 --> 00:23:25,662
a jail in New Mexico, which had had some

564
00:23:25,662 --> 00:23:29,806
pretty horrific situations where there had

565
00:23:29,806 --> 00:23:31,626
been some beheadings of some of the

566
00:23:31,626 --> 00:23:34,498
guards. And it was just a pretty brutal

567
00:23:34,498 --> 00:23:39,666
kind of prison break years before. And his

568
00:23:39,666 --> 00:23:43,230
experience and his stories were just

569
00:23:43,230 --> 00:23:44,786
incredible. I mean, I feel like some of

570
00:23:44,786 --> 00:23:46,926
the inmates he worked with and taught

571
00:23:46,926 --> 00:23:49,062
seminary classes, too, and also provided

572
00:23:49,062 --> 00:23:51,266
whatever religion they had, the

573
00:23:51,266 --> 00:23:52,406
paraphernalia from their own religion, and

574
00:23:52,406 --> 00:23:54,406
would have discussions with them about

575
00:23:54,406 --> 00:23:55,846
their faith, whatever their faith was,

576
00:23:55,846 --> 00:23:58,166
whether it was some native american

577
00:23:58,166 --> 00:24:02,454
indigenous practices or with nation of

578
00:24:02,454 --> 00:24:03,626
Islam, all these different religions. So

579
00:24:03,626 --> 00:24:06,618
he always had fascinating stories, but

580
00:24:06,618 --> 00:24:09,014
especially with his kind of teaching

581
00:24:09,014 --> 00:24:10,510
seminary classes, he had a pretty similar

582
00:24:10,510 --> 00:24:12,158
experience. People were well prepared.

583
00:24:12,158 --> 00:24:14,960
There were some really intelligent inmates

584
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,254
who maybe had been raised in situations

585
00:24:18,254 --> 00:24:21,280
where their classical education had not

586
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,606
been the same level as had they been

587
00:24:24,606 --> 00:24:26,402
raised in a zip code where the property

588
00:24:26,402 --> 00:24:29,374
value was higher, for example. But the

589
00:24:29,374 --> 00:24:31,394
intelligence and capability of learning

590
00:24:31,394 --> 00:24:35,746
and their desire to learn very high in

591
00:24:35,746 --> 00:24:37,506
some of these cases. And I was always

592
00:24:37,506 --> 00:24:39,186
fascinated, and still am, when I hear my

593
00:24:39,186 --> 00:24:41,334
dad tell those stories, because I think we

594
00:24:41,334 --> 00:24:44,966
have a lot of stigma around people who

595
00:24:44,966 --> 00:24:48,934
have been incarcerated. And when you talk

596
00:24:48,934 --> 00:24:52,186
about the lens of the scripture, through

597
00:24:52,186 --> 00:24:54,634
what you just mentioned, how many people

598
00:24:54,634 --> 00:24:57,306
had been incarcerated that are heroes of

599
00:24:57,306 --> 00:24:59,146
the faith, it really does sort of give us

600
00:24:59,146 --> 00:25:01,440
a whole different way of approaching it

601
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,206
and. A whole different conversation to

602
00:25:04,206 --> 00:25:05,934
have, and. Hopefully a lot more compassion

603
00:25:05,934 --> 00:25:09,486
on ourselves and on our communities and

604
00:25:09,486 --> 00:25:11,886
also the justice system that is part of

605
00:25:11,886 --> 00:25:14,842
our wherever country we live in. How we

606
00:25:14,842 --> 00:25:16,818
handle people who commit crimes is a part

607
00:25:16,818 --> 00:25:19,426
of our faith journey. Right? It's so true.

608
00:25:19,426 --> 00:25:22,098
And God bless your dad. That's such

609
00:25:22,098 --> 00:25:24,898
important work that he did. I feel that

610
00:25:24,898 --> 00:25:27,526
education is so transformative for all of

611
00:25:27,526 --> 00:25:29,078
us. It certainly has transformed my life,

612
00:25:29,078 --> 00:25:31,366
and. I'm sure yours, too, but especially

613
00:25:31,366 --> 00:25:34,374
for people who are incarcerated, because

614
00:25:34,374 --> 00:25:38,582
it does so much not only for a person's

615
00:25:38,582 --> 00:25:40,454
sense of their intelligence, but also

616
00:25:40,454 --> 00:25:43,338
their self esteem. Someone who works in

617
00:25:43,338 --> 00:25:46,042
the correction system. Told me that when

618
00:25:46,042 --> 00:25:48,294
people become better. Educated, it

619
00:25:48,294 --> 00:25:49,834
improves their relationships with the

620
00:25:49,834 --> 00:25:51,354
people that they're with, whether it's

621
00:25:51,354 --> 00:25:53,338
corrections officers or other people with

622
00:25:53,338 --> 00:25:55,934
whom they're incarcerated, and also with

623
00:25:55,934 --> 00:25:58,906
their families, and also it improves their

624
00:25:58,906 --> 00:26:00,750
hygiene. That one surprised me. But it's

625
00:26:00,750 --> 00:26:03,214
because people's self esteem improves and

626
00:26:03,214 --> 00:26:06,454
their sense of themselves improves, and.

627
00:26:06,454 --> 00:26:08,354
That'S invaluable, especially because most

628
00:26:08,354 --> 00:26:10,226
people get released and come back on the

629
00:26:10,226 --> 00:26:13,374
outside. We want people who are able to.

630
00:26:13,374 --> 00:26:14,626
Contribute to society, and that's what

631
00:26:14,626 --> 00:26:16,594
they want to do, too. But we need to help

632
00:26:16,594 --> 00:26:20,854
give those tools. Absolutely, 100% agree

633
00:26:20,854 --> 00:26:23,174
with that. And there are some really great

634
00:26:23,174 --> 00:26:24,614
people. Doing some really good work out

635
00:26:24,614 --> 00:26:27,618
there. It's pretty cool to see. I want to

636
00:26:27,618 --> 00:26:29,800
shift gears for a second and talk about

637
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,506
how Eve isn't evil, which is, once again,

638
00:26:32,506 --> 00:26:38,700
such a. Great title. When you were writing

639
00:26:38,700 --> 00:26:42,238
it. You're looking at different sections

640
00:26:42,238 --> 00:26:44,126
of the Bible through a feminist lens. I

641
00:26:44,126 --> 00:26:46,298
know that for me personally, feminist

642
00:26:46,298 --> 00:26:48,202
theologians have been very helpful, and I

643
00:26:48,202 --> 00:26:50,990
include the muhedistas, the womanist

644
00:26:50,990 --> 00:26:54,462
theologians, women of color in that,

645
00:26:54,462 --> 00:26:56,894
because that extra layer of people's

646
00:26:56,894 --> 00:26:58,354
perspective of not just being a woman, but

647
00:26:58,354 --> 00:27:01,458
from being different cultures, necessarily

648
00:27:01,458 --> 00:27:03,426
from the white male theologians, which is

649
00:27:03,426 --> 00:27:05,502
the predominant theologians I read in

650
00:27:05,502 --> 00:27:08,454
seminary at least, and for many years. So

651
00:27:08,454 --> 00:27:10,226
why did you choose this approach, a

652
00:27:10,226 --> 00:27:12,246
feminist lens on the scriptures? And how

653
00:27:12,246 --> 00:27:15,830
was it helpful in writing this book?

654
00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:17,714
Again, I have to tell you, Laura. I really

655
00:27:17,714 --> 00:27:20,834
felt called to do it. I believe the Holy

656
00:27:20,834 --> 00:27:23,722
Spirit put it on my heart, but also, this

657
00:27:23,722 --> 00:27:26,554
is how I fell in love with the Bible. I

658
00:27:26,554 --> 00:27:28,746
really felt like it was an otherizing

659
00:27:28,746 --> 00:27:30,346
story. Honestly, I didn't know that it

660
00:27:30,346 --> 00:27:32,486
had. That much to do with me until I

661
00:27:32,486 --> 00:27:34,106
started reading it through a feminist

662
00:27:34,106 --> 00:27:36,602
lens. And that was again held by my.

663
00:27:36,602 --> 00:27:39,306
Professor, Dr. Phyllis tribble at Union

664
00:27:39,306 --> 00:27:40,526
theological. Seminary, who, as you know,

665
00:27:40,526 --> 00:27:43,646
is really. The foremother of feminist

666
00:27:43,646 --> 00:27:45,678
biblical interpretation for the hebrew

667
00:27:45,678 --> 00:27:48,482
scriptures. And in her lectures, I would

668
00:27:48,482 --> 00:27:51,874
just sit there, enraptured and empowered,

669
00:27:51,874 --> 00:27:54,130
and started to feel like, wait, this story

670
00:27:54,130 --> 00:27:57,154
about Eve is not what they've been telling

671
00:27:57,154 --> 00:27:59,894
me. What? It doesn't mention anything

672
00:27:59,894 --> 00:28:02,054
about original sin or the fall. Those

673
00:28:02,054 --> 00:28:04,694
words are nowhere in this chapter or this

674
00:28:04,694 --> 00:28:06,626
whole story. It's not that long a story.

675
00:28:06,626 --> 00:28:09,894
Genesis two, three, they're nowhere. But

676
00:28:09,894 --> 00:28:12,346
why is that all anyone knows about Eve?

677
00:28:12,346 --> 00:28:14,298
And the more I began to learn and the more

678
00:28:14,298 --> 00:28:16,842
I got the tools. To delve deeper into the

679
00:28:16,842 --> 00:28:19,530
text, the more exciting I found. And I

680
00:28:19,530 --> 00:28:21,974
thought, I just want to share what I've

681
00:28:21,974 --> 00:28:24,046
learned. Hopefully, in a way that people

682
00:28:24,046 --> 00:28:26,382
will. Find accessible, hopefully in a way

683
00:28:26,382 --> 00:28:28,526
that. People who haven't been to seminary

684
00:28:28,526 --> 00:28:30,202
or even don't know anything about the

685
00:28:30,202 --> 00:28:32,414
Bible. But are just a little curious,

686
00:28:32,414 --> 00:28:33,934
will. Feel like they're brought along for

687
00:28:33,934 --> 00:28:35,726
the journey and not left on the side. If

688
00:28:35,726 --> 00:28:37,698
they haven't had a whole lot of biblical

689
00:28:37,698 --> 00:28:39,634
education, because I really knew. Very

690
00:28:39,634 --> 00:28:41,106
little about the Bible, honestly, until. I

691
00:28:41,106 --> 00:28:42,958
went to seminary. And a lot of people

692
00:28:42,958 --> 00:28:44,594
don't have that opportunity. So I'm hoping

693
00:28:44,594 --> 00:28:47,730
this book will help people to discover the

694
00:28:47,730 --> 00:28:50,374
scriptures as an exciting, liberating,

695
00:28:50,374 --> 00:28:52,066
life giving word. Because that's what

696
00:28:52,066 --> 00:28:53,778
feminist interpretation did for. Me, and

697
00:28:53,778 --> 00:28:58,426
that's what I hope this brothers as well.

698
00:28:58,426 --> 00:29:03,978
I love that. Big proponent of just getting

699
00:29:03,978 --> 00:29:06,202
different perspectives on the scriptures.

700
00:29:06,202 --> 00:29:09,274
Because once again, it's not just one

701
00:29:09,274 --> 00:29:11,810
book. We call it the Bible, but it was

702
00:29:11,810 --> 00:29:14,142
written over such a long period of time,

703
00:29:14,142 --> 00:29:16,042
people in all these different contexts,

704
00:29:16,042 --> 00:29:19,434
largely under oppression, and

705
00:29:19,434 --> 00:29:20,746
understanding the context of all that

706
00:29:20,746 --> 00:29:23,294
matters. But even as some of the beauty of

707
00:29:23,294 --> 00:29:25,490
this literature is that as we read it

708
00:29:25,490 --> 00:29:27,858
today, it's still so relevant to the human

709
00:29:27,858 --> 00:29:29,890
experience and our own lived experiences

710
00:29:29,890 --> 00:29:32,622
today. But each of us have such different

711
00:29:32,622 --> 00:29:37,398
filters, and I do. I work in tech now in a

712
00:29:37,398 --> 00:29:40,386
company where I'm a senior manager of

713
00:29:40,386 --> 00:29:41,526
leadership and development. And I've been

714
00:29:41,526 --> 00:29:45,286
doing these leadership seminars in the UK

715
00:29:45,286 --> 00:29:47,366
with our people there, and then in Memphis

716
00:29:47,366 --> 00:29:49,798
and then recently here in our Fremont

717
00:29:49,798 --> 00:29:52,746
headquarters. And every time I do these

718
00:29:52,746 --> 00:29:54,774
kind of workshops, I'm training on

719
00:29:54,774 --> 00:29:56,138
communication skills and listen to

720
00:29:56,138 --> 00:29:58,938
understand for our leaders. And in my

721
00:29:58,938 --> 00:30:01,686
research for that, a guy at Stanford

722
00:30:01,686 --> 00:30:03,690
graduate business school was saying, the

723
00:30:03,690 --> 00:30:05,886
filters that we listen through are unique

724
00:30:05,886 --> 00:30:07,562
to each of us because of our

725
00:30:07,562 --> 00:30:08,794
personalities, our experiences, our

726
00:30:08,794 --> 00:30:11,726
cultures, our languages, our families,

727
00:30:11,726 --> 00:30:14,606
what we've been through our lives. And so

728
00:30:14,606 --> 00:30:16,402
everybody's filters are unique when we

729
00:30:16,402 --> 00:30:18,334
listen, and they are as unique, and this

730
00:30:18,334 --> 00:30:21,470
floored me as our fingerprint. So

731
00:30:21,470 --> 00:30:23,518
literally everyone that listens is

732
00:30:23,518 --> 00:30:25,602
listening. In a unique way. And I really

733
00:30:25,602 --> 00:30:27,554
believe as we read the scriptures, we're

734
00:30:27,554 --> 00:30:30,246
all reading it in unique ways. And so to

735
00:30:30,246 --> 00:30:32,626
kind of put us in a box of how we read it,

736
00:30:32,626 --> 00:30:34,646
it's not helping us. It was not intended

737
00:30:34,646 --> 00:30:38,390
for that. But you yourself, as a mother,

738
00:30:38,390 --> 00:30:40,806
are reading through the lens of a mother.

739
00:30:40,806 --> 00:30:43,254
You're also reading and writing in a

740
00:30:43,254 --> 00:30:45,754
scholarly way about your own family. And

741
00:30:45,754 --> 00:30:48,570
you write about, through the lens of your

742
00:30:48,570 --> 00:30:50,394
children and labels they've had to carry

743
00:30:50,394 --> 00:30:51,886
from their own differences. So you write

744
00:30:51,886 --> 00:30:54,378
about your son's autism diagnosis, your

745
00:30:54,378 --> 00:30:56,894
daughter's struggles with bipolar. How did

746
00:30:56,894 --> 00:30:59,006
this impact you and your writing and your

747
00:30:59,006 --> 00:31:03,342
work as a scholar? Part of it was a

748
00:31:03,342 --> 00:31:06,674
response to. Social media, because we all

749
00:31:06,674 --> 00:31:10,238
put out our beautifully curated worlds.

750
00:31:10,238 --> 00:31:12,658
I'm barely on social media, but you. Look

751
00:31:12,658 --> 00:31:14,642
at Instagram, you look at Facebook. And

752
00:31:14,642 --> 00:31:16,974
you see that everything looks so

753
00:31:16,974 --> 00:31:18,354
wonderful. And people are having such a

754
00:31:18,354 --> 00:31:20,550
great time. And his family is absolutely

755
00:31:20,550 --> 00:31:23,142
perfect, and. It'S just not real life. And

756
00:31:23,142 --> 00:31:25,526
so I wanted to. In response to that, I

757
00:31:25,526 --> 00:31:27,526
just wanted to share some of my struggles

758
00:31:27,526 --> 00:31:30,106
and. Some of my family struggles. And we

759
00:31:30,106 --> 00:31:33,354
talk about a world of difference. We're

760
00:31:33,354 --> 00:31:35,146
all different, right? Like, our filters

761
00:31:35,146 --> 00:31:36,678
are unique, as you just said, our

762
00:31:36,678 --> 00:31:38,202
fingerprints are unique. We're all

763
00:31:38,202 --> 00:31:42,682
different. But some people have labels

764
00:31:42,682 --> 00:31:45,262
that are put upon them and that you live.

765
00:31:45,262 --> 00:31:47,374
With because it's your ticket to services

766
00:31:47,374 --> 00:31:48,846
and it's how you hopefully can get some

767
00:31:48,846 --> 00:31:51,054
help. But that's not easy. We found out

768
00:31:51,054 --> 00:31:55,566
that my son was. He had this diagnosis. At

769
00:31:55,566 --> 00:31:57,194
the time, they called it Asperger's

770
00:31:57,194 --> 00:31:59,182
syndrome. Now we call it being on the

771
00:31:59,182 --> 00:32:00,818
spectrum. But he got this diagnosis when

772
00:32:00,818 --> 00:32:02,846
he. Was five years old because he just

773
00:32:02,846 --> 00:32:04,674
didn't have much interest in other

774
00:32:04,674 --> 00:32:07,246
children. And that's a tough number for a.

775
00:32:07,246 --> 00:32:10,774
Parent to be told your child's autistic,

776
00:32:10,774 --> 00:32:13,238
and I just had no idea what his future was

777
00:32:13,238 --> 00:32:16,294
going to be like. And we were able to get

778
00:32:16,294 --> 00:32:18,486
him. Services through the school a little

779
00:32:18,486 --> 00:32:21,866
bit on our own. I did some things for him

780
00:32:21,866 --> 00:32:24,442
I wish I had done more. Know, it's so

781
00:32:24,442 --> 00:32:26,780
hard. You always, you know, you can always

782
00:32:26,780 --> 00:32:30,198
do. He's. Yeah, you can always do more.

783
00:32:30,198 --> 00:32:32,250
That's really hard on moms, especially,

784
00:32:32,250 --> 00:32:35,818
like. There'S so much you can do. But now

785
00:32:35,818 --> 00:32:37,566
he's doing really well. I want to tell

786
00:32:37,566 --> 00:32:39,214
you, Lori, he's like a success story. He

787
00:32:39,214 --> 00:32:41,086
lives in Brooklyn, shares an apartment

788
00:32:41,086 --> 00:32:43,274
with my nephew. He works for Morgan Chase,

789
00:32:43,274 --> 00:32:46,322
pays all his own bills. He's doing great.

790
00:32:46,322 --> 00:32:49,426
And so you can get to the. Other side of

791
00:32:49,426 --> 00:32:51,220
it. I don't talk about that part in. The

792
00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:55,186
book, but it's there. And when we share

793
00:32:55,186 --> 00:32:58,450
these struggles, we feel less alone. My

794
00:32:58,450 --> 00:33:01,794
daughter, she's developed this show called

795
00:33:01,794 --> 00:33:04,770
Bipolar Badass. She started doing comedy

796
00:33:04,770 --> 00:33:07,026
sketches in New. York City about her

797
00:33:07,026 --> 00:33:08,934
bipolar disorder, and. Then she developed

798
00:33:08,934 --> 00:33:10,826
into a show that. She took on the fringe.

799
00:33:10,826 --> 00:33:12,918
She won emerging artist awards. She's

800
00:33:12,918 --> 00:33:15,546
performing in Europe. And her whole goal

801
00:33:15,546 --> 00:33:18,026
is to take away some of the stigma about

802
00:33:18,026 --> 00:33:20,666
having bipolar disorder, because people

803
00:33:20,666 --> 00:33:22,986
speak about having. Cancer, and then they

804
00:33:22,986 --> 00:33:25,098
get flooded with sympathy. You say that

805
00:33:25,098 --> 00:33:28,106
you're bipolar, and people use it as an

806
00:33:28,106 --> 00:33:29,406
expression that's derogatory. When they're

807
00:33:29,406 --> 00:33:31,546
having a bad day. Oh, I feel so bipolar.

808
00:33:31,546 --> 00:33:33,854
It's a serious, life threatening, chronic

809
00:33:33,854 --> 00:33:37,138
condition, and we need to recognize that,

810
00:33:37,138 --> 00:33:39,698
but also be grateful that it's treatable

811
00:33:39,698 --> 00:33:42,274
and. There are things you can do. And so

812
00:33:42,274 --> 00:33:45,566
she talks about her medication. And she

813
00:33:45,566 --> 00:33:46,866
talks about that in her routine. She talks

814
00:33:46,866 --> 00:33:49,926
about that in her show. And I talk a

815
00:33:49,926 --> 00:33:52,194
little bit in the book about how

816
00:33:52,194 --> 00:33:54,374
terrifying depression can be. I don't

817
00:33:54,374 --> 00:33:56,418
mention this, but I lost. A cousin to

818
00:33:56,418 --> 00:33:58,422
depression who took his. Own life, so I

819
00:33:58,422 --> 00:34:02,090
get how scary. It can be, but she's really

820
00:34:02,090 --> 00:34:04,746
working hard to combat that. And I think

821
00:34:04,746 --> 00:34:07,366
when we talk about. It, it helps us all to

822
00:34:07,366 --> 00:34:09,962
erase the stigma. It helps us all to find

823
00:34:09,962 --> 00:34:12,246
help. And for me, that's one of the. Great

824
00:34:12,246 --> 00:34:14,414
gifts of feminism. It helps us to feel

825
00:34:14,414 --> 00:34:16,446
less alone, and I hope that the book might

826
00:34:16,446 --> 00:34:20,654
do that in some small way, too. Yeah.

827
00:34:20,654 --> 00:34:22,698
Well, thank you so much for sharing that

828
00:34:22,698 --> 00:34:24,158
vulnerably. I think that many people

829
00:34:24,158 --> 00:34:27,454
listening to this podcast can relate both

830
00:34:27,454 --> 00:34:29,886
families who have somebody in their family

831
00:34:29,886 --> 00:34:32,562
that's on the autism spectrum, people that

832
00:34:32,562 --> 00:34:34,674
actually themselves are neurodiverse, that

833
00:34:34,674 --> 00:34:37,822
listen to the podcast, as well as people

834
00:34:37,822 --> 00:34:41,126
who suffer from bipolar and the stigma of

835
00:34:41,126 --> 00:34:43,362
it as well, as well as some of the

836
00:34:43,362 --> 00:34:46,034
complications medically from getting the

837
00:34:46,034 --> 00:34:47,174
treatments that. You need, which is a

838
00:34:47,174 --> 00:34:49,270
whole other. Kind of conversation as well,

839
00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:51,194
of marginalization, at least in the United

840
00:34:51,194 --> 00:34:53,594
States, that often people experience. And

841
00:34:53,594 --> 00:34:56,460
being a mother of children like that, but

842
00:34:56,460 --> 00:34:59,466
also seeing the struggle and hearing you

843
00:34:59,466 --> 00:35:02,746
talk about that as well as know hope that

844
00:35:02,746 --> 00:35:04,734
you give for what their lives are like

845
00:35:04,734 --> 00:35:06,766
now. And I'm really grateful to hear that

846
00:35:06,766 --> 00:35:08,862
you raised them in such a way as to where

847
00:35:08,862 --> 00:35:11,214
their differences could be something that

848
00:35:11,214 --> 00:35:13,138
could help them to make a difference in

849
00:35:13,138 --> 00:35:14,386
the lives of others. We will definitely

850
00:35:14,386 --> 00:35:16,386
check out bipolar badass, so we'll look

851
00:35:16,386 --> 00:35:20,770
for that. That sounds like a lot of.

852
00:35:20,770 --> 00:35:26,290
Badass. That's awesome. When we think

853
00:35:26,290 --> 00:35:28,354
about this book that you've written and

854
00:35:28,354 --> 00:35:30,214
such a gift. Thank you so much for all the

855
00:35:30,214 --> 00:35:33,346
hard work you put into it. Your

856
00:35:33,346 --> 00:35:34,962
interpretation of Eve, you mentioned this

857
00:35:34,962 --> 00:35:36,614
earlier. It's so different than what you

858
00:35:36,614 --> 00:35:40,002
were told. Most of us, when we think about

859
00:35:40,002 --> 00:35:41,846
Eve, especially in some of the white

860
00:35:41,846 --> 00:35:43,002
evangelical spaces here in the United

861
00:35:43,002 --> 00:35:45,606
States, a lot of us do think, or the

862
00:35:45,606 --> 00:35:47,830
narratives that we've heard some

863
00:35:47,830 --> 00:35:49,754
preachers, mostly men, say about her,

864
00:35:49,754 --> 00:35:51,914
well, she was the first to sin. She led

865
00:35:51,914 --> 00:35:55,550
Adam into sin. When you think about Eve

866
00:35:55,550 --> 00:35:57,262
now, especially after having written this

867
00:35:57,262 --> 00:35:59,774
book, kind of how do you understand her

868
00:35:59,774 --> 00:36:04,038
and why? I love her. She is one of my

869
00:36:04,038 --> 00:36:06,942
favorite Bible. Characters because she's

870
00:36:06,942 --> 00:36:09,810
curious, because she seeks knowledge,

871
00:36:09,810 --> 00:36:11,474
because she wants to know the. Difference

872
00:36:11,474 --> 00:36:13,026
between good and evil as she. Makes her

873
00:36:13,026 --> 00:36:15,438
way in the world, that's ethics. I think

874
00:36:15,438 --> 00:36:17,094
that's a good thing to go through the

875
00:36:17,094 --> 00:36:20,694
world ethically. And all of this blame is

876
00:36:20,694 --> 00:36:24,246
put on her when Adam is there the entire

877
00:36:24,246 --> 00:36:26,422
time. That's something that often gets

878
00:36:26,422 --> 00:36:29,794
left out, not only from our

879
00:36:29,794 --> 00:36:31,522
interpretation, but actually from the

880
00:36:31,522 --> 00:36:34,426
translation. So Genesis three six reads.

881
00:36:34,426 --> 00:36:36,074
And when she saw that the tree. Was good

882
00:36:36,074 --> 00:36:38,378
for food and that it was a delight to the

883
00:36:38,378 --> 00:36:40,694
eyes and that it was desired to make one

884
00:36:40,694 --> 00:36:43,274
wise, she took of its fruit and she ate

885
00:36:43,274 --> 00:36:45,566
and she gave some to her husband who was

886
00:36:45,566 --> 00:36:48,606
with her, and he ate. That's the NRSV. I

887
00:36:48,606 --> 00:36:50,078
would say her man, because there hasn't

888
00:36:50,078 --> 00:36:51,646
like been a marriage thing, but anyway.

889
00:36:51,646 --> 00:36:56,018
And he ate. But the words who was with her

890
00:36:56,018 --> 00:36:58,066
are not in a lot of Bibles. They're not in

891
00:36:58,066 --> 00:37:00,306
the revised standard Version. They're not

892
00:37:00,306 --> 00:37:02,626
in the Jewish Publication Society, Tanakh

893
00:37:02,626 --> 00:37:07,550
of 1985. They are left out of many

894
00:37:07,550 --> 00:37:09,638
translations of the Bible. And that about

895
00:37:09,638 --> 00:37:11,766
a third of english translations leave that

896
00:37:11,766 --> 00:37:13,826
out. I did a lot of research on this and

897
00:37:13,826 --> 00:37:15,874
published an article called Blaming Eve

898
00:37:15,874 --> 00:37:19,894
alone. But I was stunned to see that. One

899
00:37:19,894 --> 00:37:22,554
small Hebrew word ima, meaning with. Her,

900
00:37:22,554 --> 00:37:25,146
has been left out of many. Translations of

901
00:37:25,146 --> 00:37:27,594
the Bible. And that makes it very easy to

902
00:37:27,594 --> 00:37:29,542
just blame her for the quote, fall of

903
00:37:29,542 --> 00:37:30,938
humanity. Fall again, that word is nowhere

904
00:37:30,938 --> 00:37:34,234
in. The text, even though she hasn't even

905
00:37:34,234 --> 00:37:37,054
been formed yet. In chapter two, when God

906
00:37:37,054 --> 00:37:38,606
says to. Adam, don't eat of the fruit of

907
00:37:38,606 --> 00:37:40,366
the street. She hasn't even been formed,

908
00:37:40,366 --> 00:37:42,590
and yet she takes the blame, she takes the

909
00:37:42,590 --> 00:37:44,366
fall for him. And at least she thinks

910
00:37:44,366 --> 00:37:45,806
about it, at least she has these reasons,

911
00:37:45,806 --> 00:37:47,106
a number of reasons why she's going to

912
00:37:47,106 --> 00:37:49,246
eat. And he just like eats right away.

913
00:37:49,246 --> 00:37:52,066
Doesn't say if he'd been a helper. Azer,

914
00:37:52,066 --> 00:37:53,870
as you mentioned before, that word means

915
00:37:53,870 --> 00:37:55,666
helper in the Hebrew Bible. She's formed

916
00:37:55,666 --> 00:37:58,466
as a helper. But 90% of the time that we.

917
00:37:58,466 --> 00:38:00,318
Read it in the Bible refers to God, like

918
00:38:00,318 --> 00:38:02,178
psalm 121, which we mentioned earlier. I

919
00:38:02,178 --> 00:38:03,954
lift my knives to the hills, you must, my

920
00:38:03,954 --> 00:38:06,518
azer, my helper. And so if he'd been more

921
00:38:06,518 --> 00:38:08,134
of. A helper himself, he might have said.

922
00:38:08,134 --> 00:38:09,766
Wait a minute, don't eat from that fruit

923
00:38:09,766 --> 00:38:12,978
of the tree. But he doesn't. He eats. And

924
00:38:12,978 --> 00:38:14,698
then all of this is a. Couple of things I

925
00:38:14,698 --> 00:38:16,294
want to point. Out that most people aren't

926
00:38:16,294 --> 00:38:18,342
aware. All three of the characters are

927
00:38:18,342 --> 00:38:20,346
punished, right? So the snake is punished.

928
00:38:20,346 --> 00:38:22,866
Here we have a series of ideologies. For

929
00:38:22,866 --> 00:38:25,914
stories of origins that explain observable

930
00:38:25,914 --> 00:38:28,266
phenomena. And so why do snakes, like,

931
00:38:28,266 --> 00:38:30,126
imagine a child in the intro, mummy, why

932
00:38:30,126 --> 00:38:31,998
does snakes slither? It's such a funny way

933
00:38:31,998 --> 00:38:33,934
to move. Most animals don't move like

934
00:38:33,934 --> 00:38:36,254
that. Let me tell you, my child, long. Ago

935
00:38:36,254 --> 00:38:38,798
and far away, there was this talking

936
00:38:38,798 --> 00:38:41,026
snake, but it disobeyed God. And so in the

937
00:38:41,026 --> 00:38:42,766
end, it had to slender, right? That's the

938
00:38:42,766 --> 00:38:44,546
punishment with the snake. And also the

939
00:38:44,546 --> 00:38:46,078
other punishment of the snake is that

940
00:38:46,078 --> 00:38:48,050
there's going to be enmity or hatred

941
00:38:48,050 --> 00:38:49,894
between the woman and the snake. And a lot

942
00:38:49,894 --> 00:38:52,674
of people have really irrational fear of

943
00:38:52,674 --> 00:38:54,486
snakes, even if it's. A garter snake that

944
00:38:54,486 --> 00:38:55,766
they know isn't. Going to hurt them. They

945
00:38:55,766 --> 00:38:58,338
just freak out, right? So it explains this

946
00:38:58,338 --> 00:39:00,834
observable phenomenon. The woman is

947
00:39:00,834 --> 00:39:03,526
punished with pain in childbirth. The word

948
00:39:03,526 --> 00:39:06,122
for pain is it savon. In Hebrew, and it

949
00:39:06,122 --> 00:39:08,166
means labor. The exact same part of the

950
00:39:08,166 --> 00:39:09,966
man's punishment, same word, itzavon. He's

951
00:39:09,966 --> 00:39:11,674
going to have to labor with the ground,

952
00:39:11,674 --> 00:39:13,086
the Adam, he's going to have to work with

953
00:39:13,086 --> 00:39:15,006
the Adama, the. Human with the humus or

954
00:39:15,006 --> 00:39:18,094
the soil. Earthling with the earth. And so

955
00:39:18,094 --> 00:39:21,162
she has this punishment of having pain and

956
00:39:21,162 --> 00:39:24,314
childbirth. But as I point out, pain and

957
00:39:24,314 --> 00:39:26,718
childbirth, which I've experienced, it's

958
00:39:26,718 --> 00:39:30,402
temporary, and. At the end, you get a but.

959
00:39:30,402 --> 00:39:32,594
So it's a really great reward for, know, a

960
00:39:32,594 --> 00:39:35,586
day or so or half a day, maybe two, of

961
00:39:35,586 --> 00:39:38,034
kind of misery. But in the. Like, you have

962
00:39:38,034 --> 00:39:40,994
this baby. It's pretty amazing. But with

963
00:39:40,994 --> 00:39:43,206
Adam, his punishment is he has to, all the

964
00:39:43,206 --> 00:39:45,654
time is toil. In, out, in, out, in, out,

965
00:39:45,654 --> 00:39:47,494
in, out, just to get enough to eat every

966
00:39:47,494 --> 00:39:49,766
single day. It doesn't stop after 24 or

967
00:39:49,766 --> 00:39:53,634
48. Or 12 hours, whatever. And also that

968
00:39:53,634 --> 00:39:55,350
pun, you know, she's. Told she has a

969
00:39:55,350 --> 00:39:56,966
punishment. Your desire shall be for your

970
00:39:56,966 --> 00:39:58,566
husband, and he shall rule over you.

971
00:39:58,566 --> 00:40:01,446
Genesis 316. Your desire shall be for your

972
00:40:01,446 --> 00:40:03,722
husband. I read as an ideology as well.

973
00:40:03,722 --> 00:40:05,662
Like, why would a woman in the ancient

974
00:40:05,662 --> 00:40:07,806
world ever sleep with a man when she knows

975
00:40:07,806 --> 00:40:09,854
that she's taking her. Life in her hands?

976
00:40:09,854 --> 00:40:11,422
Because she could die in childbirth.

977
00:40:11,422 --> 00:40:12,826
Without medical care, your chances of

978
00:40:12,826 --> 00:40:14,542
dying are pretty good. One in ten, one in

979
00:40:14,542 --> 00:40:16,894
20, maybe. That's like russian roulette.

980
00:40:16,894 --> 00:40:18,226
So why would she ever sleep with a man?

981
00:40:18,226 --> 00:40:20,226
You need to explain it with an ideology.

982
00:40:20,226 --> 00:40:23,374
Her desire will be for a husband. And her

983
00:40:23,374 --> 00:40:24,898
turning actually is to. Shook is the word

984
00:40:24,898 --> 00:40:26,606
in Hebrew. Her turning will be to her

985
00:40:26,606 --> 00:40:28,086
husband. So she will turn or something,

986
00:40:28,086 --> 00:40:30,166
and. He will rule over her. Carol Myers,

987
00:40:30,166 --> 00:40:33,298
who I mentioned earlier, she says this is

988
00:40:33,298 --> 00:40:35,814
explaining the man's role as penetrator.

989
00:40:35,814 --> 00:40:38,950
Know, sexually, he's dominating in this,

990
00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:40,726
and. But it's part of the punishment. And

991
00:40:40,726 --> 00:40:42,646
even if you think it's an ideology for

992
00:40:42,646 --> 00:40:43,718
patriarchy, it's part of the punishment.

993
00:40:43,718 --> 00:40:45,466
It's not God's good creation. These are

994
00:40:45,466 --> 00:40:46,938
the difficult things we're stuck dealing

995
00:40:46,938 --> 00:40:50,666
with. And then the man, he has to. Labor

996
00:40:50,666 --> 00:40:53,206
all the time. He's going to become dust

997
00:40:53,206 --> 00:40:54,366
serpent food, which was what we're told

998
00:40:54,366 --> 00:40:57,034
the serpent. Is going to eat. So his

999
00:40:57,034 --> 00:40:58,590
punishment really seems pretty harsh to

1000
00:40:58,590 --> 00:41:00,606
me. But then what happens? At the very end

1001
00:41:00,606 --> 00:41:03,118
of chapter three. Only the ha Adam is sent

1002
00:41:03,118 --> 00:41:05,086
out. Of the garden of Eden. And I play

1003
00:41:05,086 --> 00:41:06,434
with a little bit in the book. I'm like,

1004
00:41:06,434 --> 00:41:09,166
and Eve and God, they stay together.

1005
00:41:09,166 --> 00:41:10,786
They're both creators. She is the mother

1006
00:41:10,786 --> 00:41:13,026
of all living. They rejoice in their wise

1007
00:41:13,026 --> 00:41:15,326
and glorious creation. Whenever you see a

1008
00:41:15,326 --> 00:41:16,926
mother and daughter laughing together,

1009
00:41:16,926 --> 00:41:19,058
that's a spark of the divine mother and

1010
00:41:19,058 --> 00:41:20,822
daughter. Whenever you see two or three

1011
00:41:20,822 --> 00:41:22,886
women together gathered in her name, she

1012
00:41:22,886 --> 00:41:26,034
is there among them. And eventually she

1013
00:41:26,034 --> 00:41:28,246
decides to take pity on Adam and go out

1014
00:41:28,246 --> 00:41:30,374
and keep. Him company, because in chapter

1015
00:41:30,374 --> 00:41:31,798
four, she's. There, and she buries Cain.

1016
00:41:31,798 --> 00:41:34,266
She buries that child. But that happens

1017
00:41:34,266 --> 00:41:35,914
much later, in my understanding. The text

1018
00:41:35,914 --> 00:41:37,786
never says when she leaves. And so perhaps

1019
00:41:37,786 --> 00:41:40,886
she is just there with God, because the

1020
00:41:40,886 --> 00:41:42,218
angel with the flaming sword that guards

1021
00:41:42,218 --> 00:41:44,666
the way to. The tree of life, only the ha

1022
00:41:44,666 --> 00:41:47,738
Adam has made out of the garden of Eden.

1023
00:41:47,738 --> 00:41:49,598
Isn't that interesting? It's so different.

1024
00:41:49,598 --> 00:41:53,086
This is just the Hebrew, Lori. Yeah. No, I

1025
00:41:53,086 --> 00:41:55,146
love it. Every time I hear people, because

1026
00:41:55,146 --> 00:41:56,994
I've studied the Hebrew of the story, I

1027
00:41:56,994 --> 00:41:59,454
hear more things that were left out of the

1028
00:41:59,454 --> 00:42:01,538
Sunday school flannel board version for a

1029
00:42:01,538 --> 00:42:04,866
lot of people listening. Can I just share

1030
00:42:04,866 --> 00:42:09,026
one other thing? It's so true. Yeah. I

1031
00:42:09,026 --> 00:42:10,386
read the Bible in Hebrew every morning

1032
00:42:10,386 --> 00:42:12,134
just because I love it so much. And every

1033
00:42:12,134 --> 00:42:14,326
time it blows my mind. I find new things.

1034
00:42:14,326 --> 00:42:16,566
So I was reading Genesis four not long ago

1035
00:42:16,566 --> 00:42:18,106
for a presentation I was. Doing on Cain

1036
00:42:18,106 --> 00:42:22,374
and Abel. And it says in English, so Eve.

1037
00:42:22,374 --> 00:42:24,314
Bears a child, and she names him, which

1038
00:42:24,314 --> 00:42:29,610
usually the women do in the Bible. Because

1039
00:42:29,610 --> 00:42:34,830
Kaniti. So I acquired him. So Kana is

1040
00:42:34,830 --> 00:42:36,826
origin of Cain. And actually, in modern

1041
00:42:36,826 --> 00:42:39,354
Hebrew, Kana means to shop. Okay, so I

1042
00:42:39,354 --> 00:42:41,674
acquired him. I acquired him. And in

1043
00:42:41,674 --> 00:42:43,626
English, it reads, with the help of the

1044
00:42:43,626 --> 00:42:46,142
Lord. But in Hebrew, it says, I acquired

1045
00:42:46,142 --> 00:42:49,086
him with the Lord. I'm like, oh, my

1046
00:42:49,086 --> 00:42:51,426
goodness, she has a child with God. Who's

1047
00:42:51,426 --> 00:42:52,866
the only other person in scripture. Who

1048
00:42:52,866 --> 00:42:55,566
has a child with God. Mary, the mother of

1049
00:42:55,566 --> 00:42:58,402
Jesus. And we see them as so opposed.

1050
00:42:58,402 --> 00:43:00,486
Because patriarchy likes to put women in

1051
00:43:00,486 --> 00:43:03,206
two places, the pedestal or the pit. The

1052
00:43:03,206 --> 00:43:05,346
two most famous women in the. Bible, Mary,

1053
00:43:05,346 --> 00:43:07,126
mother of Jesus, virgin mother. Good luck

1054
00:43:07,126 --> 00:43:09,654
trying to emulate that. And then Eve, who

1055
00:43:09,654 --> 00:43:11,594
brings down all of humanity, like, you

1056
00:43:11,594 --> 00:43:13,962
have these terrible. Choices, but

1057
00:43:13,962 --> 00:43:15,894
actually, they're so close. They're

1058
00:43:15,894 --> 00:43:18,522
scriptural sisters, because both of them.

1059
00:43:18,522 --> 00:43:21,830
Give birth to life, in some ways, this

1060
00:43:21,830 --> 00:43:23,694
incredible life, and both of them. Have a

1061
00:43:23,694 --> 00:43:27,422
child of God. Isn't that amazing? That is

1062
00:43:27,422 --> 00:43:29,754
amazing. Yeah. I think that that's the

1063
00:43:29,754 --> 00:43:32,174
beauty of when we can read the Bible

1064
00:43:32,174 --> 00:43:35,902
through the lens of a feminist

1065
00:43:35,902 --> 00:43:38,370
perspective, where we're looking for.

1066
00:43:38,370 --> 00:43:40,734
Where are we seeing that men and women are

1067
00:43:40,734 --> 00:43:43,598
equal? And when you look for it, it's

1068
00:43:43,598 --> 00:43:47,406
everywhere, from Genesis 127 onward. It

1069
00:43:47,406 --> 00:43:49,258
doesn't mean women aren't experiencing

1070
00:43:49,258 --> 00:43:50,742
oppression or marginalization. And, in

1071
00:43:50,742 --> 00:43:52,246
fact, it looks like Jesus is sort of

1072
00:43:52,246 --> 00:43:54,550
trying to highlight that a lot of his

1073
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:57,266
ministry. But the lens is there, and the

1074
00:43:57,266 --> 00:44:00,386
lens is helpful, and you realize there's

1075
00:44:00,386 --> 00:44:02,406
parts of the story that haven't been

1076
00:44:02,406 --> 00:44:04,166
preached from a lot of pulpits you've been

1077
00:44:04,166 --> 00:44:06,426
sitting in. And therefore, hopefully, it

1078
00:44:06,426 --> 00:44:07,974
makes us curious, which is what you're

1079
00:44:07,974 --> 00:44:10,054
inviting us into by the time the book

1080
00:44:10,054 --> 00:44:12,086
finishes. And I really love that. My

1081
00:44:12,086 --> 00:44:15,440
husband was preparing for a sermon last

1082
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,746
week. He and I sometimes fill in at a

1083
00:44:18,746 --> 00:44:20,206
pulpit here at an indonesian church, and

1084
00:44:20,206 --> 00:44:22,074
he was going to be preaching on the

1085
00:44:22,074 --> 00:44:25,194
prodigal son, and he wanted to get some

1086
00:44:25,194 --> 00:44:27,086
female theologian their perspectives as he

1087
00:44:27,086 --> 00:44:29,406
was studying it. And he's like, it's just

1088
00:44:29,406 --> 00:44:30,546
fascinating. There's not really women in

1089
00:44:30,546 --> 00:44:32,722
the story, but there's so many stories

1090
00:44:32,722 --> 00:44:34,146
like that that people might preach on

1091
00:44:34,146 --> 00:44:36,418
where the women don't exist. And you point

1092
00:44:36,418 --> 00:44:39,134
out in the book of Job, there's very few

1093
00:44:39,134 --> 00:44:41,794
female characters, but this book is a very

1094
00:44:41,794 --> 00:44:44,726
rich and deep book of the Bible. As you

1095
00:44:44,726 --> 00:44:46,198
read it through a feminist lens, did you

1096
00:44:46,198 --> 00:44:49,174
want to say a little bit more about. You

1097
00:44:49,174 --> 00:44:51,014
know, you're so right, Lori. We can find

1098
00:44:51,014 --> 00:44:53,058
this feminist lens, and. Let'S face it,

1099
00:44:53,058 --> 00:44:55,498
some texts are easier. To apply it to than

1100
00:44:55,498 --> 00:44:56,922
others. And some texts are really

1101
00:44:56,922 --> 00:44:58,522
difficult in. Terms of what they say about

1102
00:44:58,522 --> 00:45:00,106
women. That's just the reality. But how do

1103
00:45:00,106 --> 00:45:02,582
we interpret it? Powers in the

1104
00:45:02,582 --> 00:45:04,398
interpretation. And so with the book of

1105
00:45:04,398 --> 00:45:07,438
Job, 42 chapters, very entracentric,

1106
00:45:07,438 --> 00:45:09,182
almost all men throughout the. Throughout

1107
00:45:09,182 --> 00:45:11,434
the text. But when we look at it with.

1108
00:45:11,434 --> 00:45:14,094
Feminist lens, there are two approaches.

1109
00:45:14,094 --> 00:45:15,806
One is to really focus on the. Women

1110
00:45:15,806 --> 00:45:17,154
character, the few women characters that

1111
00:45:17,154 --> 00:45:21,858
there are. And in Job 29, Job's wife has

1112
00:45:21,858 --> 00:45:24,494
exactly six words in Hebrew, which in

1113
00:45:24,494 --> 00:45:26,966
English, we read, do you still persist in

1114
00:45:26,966 --> 00:45:30,022
your integrity, curse God and die?

1115
00:45:30,022 --> 00:45:32,546
However, the Hebrew says, you are still

1116
00:45:32,546 --> 00:45:35,382
holding on to your integrity. Bless God

1117
00:45:35,382 --> 00:45:39,770
and die. What? It's like the exact

1118
00:45:39,770 --> 00:45:42,966
opposite. And so I explore that in this

1119
00:45:42,966 --> 00:45:45,178
section. Curious. Like Eve. Learn more.

1120
00:45:45,178 --> 00:45:48,982
But why the word barech, meaning as an

1121
00:45:48,982 --> 00:45:51,302
imperative, meaning to bless, is

1122
00:45:51,302 --> 00:45:53,978
translated as curse? I think it's a bias

1123
00:45:53,978 --> 00:45:55,694
against Job's wife. There are places when

1124
00:45:55,694 --> 00:45:58,014
you can and probably should translate it

1125
00:45:58,014 --> 00:46:00,062
as curse, but I don't think this is one of

1126
00:46:00,062 --> 00:46:02,782
them. And also in English, we read her

1127
00:46:02,782 --> 00:46:04,414
asking a question. Do you still persist in

1128
00:46:04,414 --> 00:46:06,330
your integrity? Like, she's making fun of

1129
00:46:06,330 --> 00:46:09,086
him, like, what's your problem? But in the

1130
00:46:09,086 --> 00:46:11,806
Hebrew, there's no indicator of an

1131
00:46:11,806 --> 00:46:13,202
interrogative. There's no interrogative.

1132
00:46:13,202 --> 00:46:14,706
Hey, like this particle at the beginning.

1133
00:46:14,706 --> 00:46:17,054
That makes a question. There's no

1134
00:46:17,054 --> 00:46:18,226
interrogative pronoun like, who, what,

1135
00:46:18,226 --> 00:46:20,454
where, when, why? None of that. If you

1136
00:46:20,454 --> 00:46:21,826
read commentaries, they'll say it's a

1137
00:46:21,826 --> 00:46:23,606
quote. Unquote, tonal, interrogative. Like

1138
00:46:23,606 --> 00:46:25,318
the tone. How do you know the tone? It's

1139
00:46:25,318 --> 00:46:28,550
on a page. I really see this as a bias.

1140
00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:30,586
Against women to make her look bad. I

1141
00:46:30,586 --> 00:46:32,566
think she's really a wonderful,

1142
00:46:32,566 --> 00:46:34,026
compassionate spouse. That's how I read

1143
00:46:34,026 --> 00:46:37,766
her. Also, at the end of job, we have his

1144
00:46:37,766 --> 00:46:39,722
sisters when he's restored. So, as you

1145
00:46:39,722 --> 00:46:42,250
know, he has this wonderful life. He loses

1146
00:46:42,250 --> 00:46:44,026
everything, including his family. We don't

1147
00:46:44,026 --> 00:46:45,418
know what happens to the wife. She sort of

1148
00:46:45,418 --> 00:46:48,254
doesn't get mentioned. His ten children,

1149
00:46:48,254 --> 00:46:50,366
seven sons, three daughters, loses it. All

1150
00:46:50,366 --> 00:46:52,078
his friends come to him. They sit silently

1151
00:46:52,078 --> 00:46:53,818
for a while. And the bulk of the book,

1152
00:46:53,818 --> 00:46:55,406
they're. Arguing back and forth with him.

1153
00:46:55,406 --> 00:46:57,234
After they've sat silently with him for.

1154
00:46:57,234 --> 00:46:58,898
Seven days, they start telling him all.

1155
00:46:58,898 --> 00:47:01,442
The things that he's done wrong. And then

1156
00:47:01,442 --> 00:47:03,474
God finally speaks from the whirlwind. And

1157
00:47:03,474 --> 00:47:05,554
God vindicates job and restores

1158
00:47:05,554 --> 00:47:07,950
everything. So we also get these women

1159
00:47:07,950 --> 00:47:09,814
characters. At the end of the book. We get

1160
00:47:09,814 --> 00:47:11,506
his sisters, who come to him when he's

1161
00:47:11,506 --> 00:47:14,022
restored and give him. Money and eat with

1162
00:47:14,022 --> 00:47:16,114
him like his brothers do, which is

1163
00:47:16,114 --> 00:47:17,734
wonderful. Just a small little detail.

1164
00:47:17,734 --> 00:47:19,098
Like they can give him money too. They've

1165
00:47:19,098 --> 00:47:21,722
got their own independent means. He has

1166
00:47:21,722 --> 00:47:24,934
three daughters, and the sons don't have

1167
00:47:24,934 --> 00:47:27,466
names. But the daughters are named Jemima,

1168
00:47:27,466 --> 00:47:30,166
which means dove. May she know freedom.

1169
00:47:30,166 --> 00:47:32,106
Kaziah, which means cinnamon flower, may

1170
00:47:32,106 --> 00:47:34,362
she. Know the subtle sweetness of life.

1171
00:47:34,362 --> 00:47:36,926
And Karen hapu, which any commentary will.

1172
00:47:36,926 --> 00:47:40,554
Tell you is a container for cosmetics. But

1173
00:47:40,554 --> 00:47:42,986
Karen means horn, and it's also. A sign of

1174
00:47:42,986 --> 00:47:45,886
strength and power. And hapuk means

1175
00:47:45,886 --> 00:47:48,594
antimony, which is a. Compound that is

1176
00:47:48,594 --> 00:47:50,306
always mixed with another. Like antimonys,

1177
00:47:50,306 --> 00:47:52,926
not alone. And so maybe he's imparting

1178
00:47:52,926 --> 00:47:55,362
strength and solidarity to her. And he

1179
00:47:55,362 --> 00:47:58,114
also gives his daughters an inheritance

1180
00:47:58,114 --> 00:48:00,390
along with his brothers. That's the only

1181
00:48:00,390 --> 00:48:02,994
place in the entire Hebrew Bible where

1182
00:48:02,994 --> 00:48:04,966
girls inherit along with their brothers.

1183
00:48:04,966 --> 00:48:06,626
Of course, you have the story of the

1184
00:48:06,626 --> 00:48:08,806
daughters of Zalofa had in numbers 26. But

1185
00:48:08,806 --> 00:48:11,138
they don't have any brothers. And so

1186
00:48:11,138 --> 00:48:13,094
that's why they can inherit. But girls

1187
00:48:13,094 --> 00:48:14,666
inheriting with their brothers. So I like

1188
00:48:14,666 --> 00:48:17,046
to say maybe Job has learned. Like a

1189
00:48:17,046 --> 00:48:18,506
budding feminist, you need to look out for

1190
00:48:18,506 --> 00:48:20,714
those who are more vulnerable. But what is

1191
00:48:20,714 --> 00:48:23,686
most feminist to me. About this book is

1192
00:48:23,686 --> 00:48:25,806
what happens in the middle. When you have

1193
00:48:25,806 --> 00:48:27,454
all of these men. Job and his friends

1194
00:48:27,454 --> 00:48:30,030
talking with each other. Job never

1195
00:48:30,030 --> 00:48:32,366
questions his own authority. He holds on

1196
00:48:32,366 --> 00:48:34,622
to the truth of his story. And when his

1197
00:48:34,622 --> 00:48:37,358
friends start telling him. This is your

1198
00:48:37,358 --> 00:48:39,218
fault, you've done something wrong. Who

1199
00:48:39,218 --> 00:48:41,202
are you to know the mind of God? It's like

1200
00:48:41,202 --> 00:48:43,746
women who are told it's your fault. What

1201
00:48:43,746 --> 00:48:47,778
were you wearing? How much did you drink?

1202
00:48:47,778 --> 00:48:51,222
And job refuses to accept that. He's like,

1203
00:48:51,222 --> 00:48:53,346
no, I didn't do anything wrong. We, the

1204
00:48:53,346 --> 00:48:55,030
reader, know why he suffered all of this.

1205
00:48:55,030 --> 00:48:57,426
Job doesn't know any of it. And he holds

1206
00:48:57,426 --> 00:48:59,606
onto his integrity. He holds on to the

1207
00:48:59,606 --> 00:49:02,054
truth of. His story, and in the end, he's

1208
00:49:02,054 --> 00:49:04,794
vindicated for it by God. And to me, that

1209
00:49:04,794 --> 00:49:09,606
seems like a very feminist takeaway. Yes,

1210
00:49:09,606 --> 00:49:13,834
it's beautiful. Love your perspective on

1211
00:49:13,834 --> 00:49:16,286
it and helps me learn even more nuance to

1212
00:49:16,286 --> 00:49:18,094
it and makes me want to reread it again. I

1213
00:49:18,094 --> 00:49:20,302
was in the middle of reading Job when I

1214
00:49:20,302 --> 00:49:23,086
was being spiritually abused by a pastor,

1215
00:49:23,086 --> 00:49:25,806
when I was a female pastor, working sort

1216
00:49:25,806 --> 00:49:28,318
of underneath him as he was the megachurch

1217
00:49:28,318 --> 00:49:30,574
pastor, and I was one of the associate

1218
00:49:30,574 --> 00:49:32,978
campus pastors, and I was reading Job when

1219
00:49:32,978 --> 00:49:34,818
it was all going down, and I ended up

1220
00:49:34,818 --> 00:49:37,874
being fired for my own abuse and blamed.

1221
00:49:37,874 --> 00:49:39,766
Why were you in a meeting with him? Why

1222
00:49:39,766 --> 00:49:42,294
did you ask that question? And reading Job

1223
00:49:42,294 --> 00:49:44,918
just gave me exactly all the things you're

1224
00:49:44,918 --> 00:49:47,734
saying when Job was being blamed by his

1225
00:49:47,734 --> 00:49:50,498
own friends. And just to be like, no,

1226
00:49:50,498 --> 00:49:52,394
that's not what happened. And it was to

1227
00:49:52,394 --> 00:49:54,634
me, as a survivor of abuse, a beautiful

1228
00:49:54,634 --> 00:49:56,598
book to read, but definitely want to

1229
00:49:56,598 --> 00:49:58,582
revisit it now in light of all the

1230
00:49:58,582 --> 00:50:01,398
feminist lens that you mentioned. And

1231
00:50:01,398 --> 00:50:03,722
there's so much richness in that book for

1232
00:50:03,722 --> 00:50:05,326
anybody who has suffered and been blamed

1233
00:50:05,326 --> 00:50:08,286
for your own suffering or abuse as well.

1234
00:50:08,286 --> 00:50:09,566
Well, I just want to say thank you for

1235
00:50:09,566 --> 00:50:11,802
this conversation today. It's been very

1236
00:50:11,802 --> 00:50:13,454
insightful, very thoughtful. Thank you for

1237
00:50:13,454 --> 00:50:15,666
all your scholarship and bringing it into

1238
00:50:15,666 --> 00:50:18,494
both this book and this conversation for

1239
00:50:18,494 --> 00:50:20,254
listeners around the world. I know that

1240
00:50:20,254 --> 00:50:22,430
eve, whether my muslim friends call her

1241
00:50:22,430 --> 00:50:26,174
Hawa or whether you're a jewish person

1242
00:50:26,174 --> 00:50:28,230
anywhere in the world, Eve is an important

1243
00:50:28,230 --> 00:50:31,202
figure for many of our religions, and

1244
00:50:31,202 --> 00:50:33,170
understanding her helps us understand

1245
00:50:33,170 --> 00:50:35,458
ourselves and how God sees us. And I think

1246
00:50:35,458 --> 00:50:37,906
it's so important to understand how

1247
00:50:37,906 --> 00:50:40,998
beloved we are as women and men made in

1248
00:50:40,998 --> 00:50:43,466
God's image, like it says in Genesis 127,

1249
00:50:43,466 --> 00:50:46,710
a verse that means so much to Christians,

1250
00:50:46,710 --> 00:50:48,922
Muslims, and jewish friends around the

1251
00:50:48,922 --> 00:50:50,918
world listening. So I'm going to have you

1252
00:50:50,918 --> 00:50:52,458
hang out later with our difference makers

1253
00:50:52,458 --> 00:50:54,918
and ask you another question there about

1254
00:50:54,918 --> 00:50:56,586
your experiences in the world and your

1255
00:50:56,586 --> 00:50:58,046
perspective on some things. But thank you

1256
00:50:58,046 --> 00:50:59,854
so much, Julie, for this conversation

1257
00:50:59,854 --> 00:51:01,374
today. How can people find you and more of

1258
00:51:01,374 --> 00:51:04,638
your writing? Just go to

1259
00:51:04,638 --> 00:51:07,402
juliefaithparker.com I've got my. Speaking

1260
00:51:07,402 --> 00:51:09,194
engagements coming up, free classes

1261
00:51:09,194 --> 00:51:11,618
online. And ways to get my books. Thank

1262
00:51:11,618 --> 00:51:13,026
you for asking, and thank you. So much for

1263
00:51:13,026 --> 00:51:14,386
having me. Laura, it's been such a joy to

1264
00:51:14,386 --> 00:51:15,982
talk with you. I'm so grateful for your

1265
00:51:15,982 --> 00:51:17,710
ministry of putting such meaningful

1266
00:51:17,710 --> 00:51:21,054
conversations out. Thank you. Thank you

1267
00:51:21,054 --> 00:51:22,630
Julie. It's nice to get to see you. In

1268
00:51:22,630 --> 00:51:24,054
person finally after having read your.

1269
00:51:24,054 --> 00:51:25,926
Book, and I'm excited for people to get a

1270
00:51:25,926 --> 00:51:27,126
hold of it. We'll put the link in the

1271
00:51:27,126 --> 00:51:28,722
show. Notes to your book. Thanks for this

1272
00:51:28,722 --> 00:51:30,994
conversation today Julie. Thank you Lori.

1273
00:51:30,994 --> 00:51:34,554
Ok everyone, Julie has blown us away. If

1274
00:51:34,554 --> 00:51:37,638
you have any inkling or have any remaining

1275
00:51:37,638 --> 00:51:38,934
thoughts in your head that Eve could

1276
00:51:38,934 --> 00:51:41,654
possibly be evil, just start this whole

1277
00:51:41,654 --> 00:51:45,002
podcast all over again and buy her book.

1278
00:51:45,002 --> 00:51:46,938
Because Eve is not evil. She has hopefully

1279
00:51:46,938 --> 00:51:49,278
cleared that up for us and also given us a

1280
00:51:49,278 --> 00:51:51,226
lot of insight into different women in the

1281
00:51:51,226 --> 00:51:53,386
ancient scriptures that we may have heard

1282
00:51:53,386 --> 00:51:55,282
sermons preached on in very different

1283
00:51:55,282 --> 00:51:57,714
ways. But as we dig deep through the lens

1284
00:51:57,714 --> 00:52:00,846
of women, as women are scholars out there

1285
00:52:00,846 --> 00:52:02,610
studying eleven languages like this

1286
00:52:02,610 --> 00:52:05,534
amazing woman, Julie, and just really

1287
00:52:05,534 --> 00:52:08,598
digging into the culture and the exegesis

1288
00:52:08,598 --> 00:52:10,546
of what was happening culturally in these

1289
00:52:10,546 --> 00:52:12,742
ancient times, around these lives of these

1290
00:52:12,742 --> 00:52:14,840
women, we start to see some different

1291
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,798
things that were always there and yet were

1292
00:52:17,798 --> 00:52:20,234
just not pointed out to us. And I read

1293
00:52:20,234 --> 00:52:22,566
pretty extensively around different

1294
00:52:22,566 --> 00:52:24,150
stories of women in these ancient

1295
00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:26,490
scriptures written by different

1296
00:52:26,490 --> 00:52:28,426
theologians. But even in reading this

1297
00:52:28,426 --> 00:52:30,086
book, there were a lot of things that I.

1298
00:52:30,086 --> 00:52:32,218
Hadn'T considered before or ways she

1299
00:52:32,218 --> 00:52:34,586
framed it that were new insights. And I

1300
00:52:34,586 --> 00:52:36,366
learned quite a few things, and I'm sure

1301
00:52:36,366 --> 00:52:39,774
you will too. I found it very insightful

1302
00:52:39,774 --> 00:52:43,166
and refreshing because there is a message

1303
00:52:43,166 --> 00:52:45,054
that gets sent when we hear Eve is evil,

1304
00:52:45,054 --> 00:52:46,802
that maybe all women are evil, and all

1305
00:52:46,802 --> 00:52:49,522
women are somehow these temptresses and

1306
00:52:49,522 --> 00:52:51,358
trying to bring a good man down. But

1307
00:52:51,358 --> 00:52:53,138
that's not the case, and that's not been

1308
00:52:53,138 --> 00:52:55,154
the case since the beginning. But all of

1309
00:52:55,154 --> 00:52:57,378
us are image bearers, and that has a lot

1310
00:52:57,378 --> 00:52:59,302
to say, not just for this story in ancient

1311
00:52:59,302 --> 00:53:00,854
times, but who we are today and how we

1312
00:53:00,854 --> 00:53:03,590
view humanity today. And it can make a

1313
00:53:03,590 --> 00:53:06,934
world of difference to see yourself in

1314
00:53:06,934 --> 00:53:12,006
this way as a beloved creation of an

1315
00:53:12,006 --> 00:53:14,700
almighty God who cares about us, men and

1316
00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:18,074
women, and made us in God's own image, and

1317
00:53:18,074 --> 00:53:22,074
that we really deserve to see ourselves in

1318
00:53:22,074 --> 00:53:24,598
this light. So when you read the book evil

1319
00:53:24,598 --> 00:53:26,286
than evil, you kind of start to see some

1320
00:53:26,286 --> 00:53:28,574
things about yourself and they're really

1321
00:53:28,574 --> 00:53:30,606
good, good things. And I hope that you can

1322
00:53:30,606 --> 00:53:33,086
pick that book up and be refreshed in ways

1323
00:53:33,086 --> 00:53:38,046
that I was because I found it very just

1324
00:53:38,046 --> 00:53:40,606
refreshing to see these insights that she

1325
00:53:40,606 --> 00:53:42,658
brought out and intriguing. It made me

1326
00:53:42,658 --> 00:53:43,938
want to learn more, made me want to

1327
00:53:43,938 --> 00:53:46,338
research more. So I hope that it will for

1328
00:53:46,338 --> 00:53:48,334
you, too. So pick up her book, Eve isn't

1329
00:53:48,334 --> 00:53:52,054
evil. Such a great title. Also, for all of

1330
00:53:52,054 --> 00:53:54,086
you out there who are just doing so much

1331
00:53:54,086 --> 00:53:56,866
good in the world, I would love for you to

1332
00:53:56,866 --> 00:53:58,326
join our difference makers community

1333
00:53:58,326 --> 00:53:59,666
because we go a little bit deeper with

1334
00:53:59,666 --> 00:54:01,782
Julie there. She has some fun things to

1335
00:54:01,782 --> 00:54:03,718
say, and you get to know her a little bit

1336
00:54:03,718 --> 00:54:05,366
better, like all of our guests who come on

1337
00:54:05,366 --> 00:54:07,366
the show. And we go a little bit deeper in

1338
00:54:07,366 --> 00:54:09,318
our difference maker community. Also, it's

1339
00:54:09,318 --> 00:54:11,982
a place where and you and I can dm each

1340
00:54:11,982 --> 00:54:14,366
other, or you can answer our poll that's

1341
00:54:14,366 --> 00:54:15,666
coming up about what you want to see in

1342
00:54:15,666 --> 00:54:18,526
2024 and make a difference for what this

1343
00:54:18,526 --> 00:54:19,966
year is going to look like in the podcast

1344
00:54:19,966 --> 00:54:21,838
so that people all around the world that

1345
00:54:21,838 --> 00:54:24,998
listen can be impacted by some of the

1346
00:54:24,998 --> 00:54:27,330
choices we make on that poll together as

1347
00:54:27,330 --> 00:54:30,254
difference makers. So yeah, join us there.

1348
00:54:30,254 --> 00:54:32,706
Join Julie in a deeper episode, join any

1349
00:54:32,706 --> 00:54:35,394
of our guests from the last year, and all

1350
00:54:35,394 --> 00:54:37,874
those exclusive episodes will be just down

1351
00:54:37,874 --> 00:54:40,614
in that community for each of you. And you

1352
00:54:40,614 --> 00:54:42,678
can just binge that for an entire month if

1353
00:54:42,678 --> 00:54:44,918
you want, by joining for just one month.

1354
00:54:44,918 --> 00:54:46,630
Or you can stick around for a little bit

1355
00:54:46,630 --> 00:54:48,822
longer and subscribe and get all of our

1356
00:54:48,822 --> 00:54:50,742
future episodes and all the past ones,

1357
00:54:50,742 --> 00:54:52,038
because it's really kind of hard to get to

1358
00:54:52,038 --> 00:54:53,218
all of. Them in just one month. But

1359
00:54:53,218 --> 00:54:58,566
they're all there. And if you go to WW dot

1360
00:54:58,566 --> 00:55:00,318
patreon.com, a world of difference, you'll

1361
00:55:00,318 --> 00:55:03,550
be able to join us for as little as $5 a

1362
00:55:03,550 --> 00:55:05,966
month. I'd love to have you there. So in

1363
00:55:05,966 --> 00:55:07,822
the meantime, I know that all of you are

1364
00:55:07,822 --> 00:55:09,502
making such a difference around the world.

1365
00:55:09,502 --> 00:55:11,786
So as always, keep making a difference