A podcast for those who are different and want to make a difference.

Jan. 17, 2024

Best of 2023: Discovering the Authentic Voices of the Bible with Dr. Scot McKnight

If you're feeling frustrated and helpless in your efforts to promote cultural and linguistic accuracy in the church, despite taking actions like advocating for diverse representation and using inclusive language, then you are not alone!

Words matter, especially in translations of the Bible. Join us as we dive into the world of New Testament translations with Scott McKnight and uncover the importance of accurate translations and the impact they can have. But when it comes to women in ministry and the use of certain words, will the translation choices make or break their place in the church? Find out in this thought-provoking discussion.

Words matter, especially in translations of the Bible. Join us as we dive into the world of New Testament translations with Scott McKnight and uncover the importance of accurate translations and the impact they can have. But when it comes to women in ministry and the use of certain words, will the translation choices make or break their place in the church? Find out in this thought-provoking discussion.

In this episode, you will be able to:

Recognize the value of cultural understanding and meticulous translation in the proper interpretation of the Bible.
Delve into the intricate dynamics of power within the church and their varied consequences.
Learn how to address spiritual abuse effectively and foster a support system for survivors.
Embrace the core principles of good leadership and the altruistic use of power in ministry.
Highlight the vital insights shared by women scholars and survivors for a more inclusive faith community.

My special guest is Dr. Scot McKnight

Meet Dr. Scot McKnight, a renowned New Testament professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois and a prolific author with a passion for diving deep into the cultural context of biblical texts. As a guest on Lori Adams-Brown's podcast, Scot brings his expertise in Bible translation and interpretation, having written over 90 books, including widely-read titles like "A Church Called Tov" and "The Blue Parakeet." A dedicated advocate for abuse survivors and a favorite professor among his students, Dr. McKnight's insights are sure to enrich your understanding of the Bible.

"I believe in the power of a more literal translation."- Dr. Scot McKnight

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

Check out Dr. Scott McKnight's new translation of the New Testament, The Second Testament.
Subscribe to Dr. McKnight's newsletter
Consider taking Greek classes with Dr. McKnight.
Purchase Dr. McKnight's books, including A Church Called Tov, The King Jesus Gospel, and The Blue Parakeet.
Follow Dr. McKnight's blog, The Jesus Creed.
Follow him on Twitter: @scotmcknight
Read Dr. McKnight's contributions as general editor of the Dictionary of Paul and His Letters.
Explore the Everyday Bible series, including the First Testament by John Golden Gay and The Kingdom New Testament by Tom Wright.

The Way of Jesus

Good leadership in the church involves recognizing, using, and sharing power in ways that are faithful to the teachings of Jesus. Followers of Jesus should strive to cultivate humility, compassion, and an attitude of serving others, often forgoing one's power to benefit those who are more vulnerable. Dr. Scot McKnight, during the podcast interview, mentioned several examples of power abuse in the church, contrasting them with the biblical teachings of Jesus. He specifically cited Romans 16 and Philippians 2:1-11, which emphasize the concept of Kenosis – the act of laying down one's power to serve others. McKnight believes that understanding this concept and applying it in the context of leadership and church relationships is essential to embodying the way of Jesus and countering the negative aspects of power dynamics in churches.

"Words deeply matter, and those words can wound and they can hurt for a long time." - Dr. Scot McKnight

Women in Ministry

An accurate translation plays a crucial role in recognizing and valuing the contributions of women in the early church. Being mindful of the words used to describe women's roles is crucial as language can shape our understanding and reinforce stereotypes or power dynamics within the church. By translating words and phrases accurately, women's contributions to the early church can be acknowledged and celebrated more fairly. During the conversation, Dr. McKnight emphasized the importance of using accurate translation to highlight women's roles in the church, such as translating the word Phoebe to mean "deacon" rather than "servant." He also mentioned the prevalence of false narratives and power dynamics in church culture that can negatively affect how people perceive women's roles in ministry. By ensuring accurate translations, he believes we can better acknowledge, value, and empower women working in the church.

Keeping Names Authentic

One of the essential aspects of ensuring cultural authenticity in a Bible translation is the use of names as close as possible to what they would have sounded in the original language. This offers a sense of novelty and unfamiliarity for readers, prompting reflection on the context and culture surrounding the text. By preserving the original names, readers can gain deeper insights into the characters and their significance in the narrative. Dr. McKnight uses transliteration in his translation, meaning that names in the Bible are rendered more authentically, closer to their original language. For instance, Yakobos is used instead of the English equivalent, James. Dr. McKnight argued during the podcast that using such authentic names invites readers to reconsider the context and culture of the Bible's characters, creating a more engaging and meaningful reading experience.

"We need to be careful with the words we use for translations, because if we don't get it right, it can hurt people." - Dr. Scot McKnight

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Introduction,

Dr. Scott McKnight is an advocate in the survivor community and a professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois. He has written over 90 books and blogs at The Jesus Creed. He talks about his new translation of the New Testament, the Second Testament, which he made more literal to help people understand the ancient context of the text.

00:06:01 - Reason for New Translation,

McKnight believes that the capacity to translate Greek into English has reached near perfection, but people miss things when they try to make it a natural English equivalent. He wants to show people the differences between the original Greek sentence and the English sentence.

00:11:37 - Distinctives of the Second Testament,

McKnight was inspired to translate the New Testament after reading John Golden Gay's translation of the Old Testament. One of the distinctives is the transliteration of names, which may be confusing but creates an authentic ancient context. McKnight's translation sometimes sounds clunky because it is formally equivalent, but that helps readers slow down and think.

00:14:57 - Keeping Names Authentic,

The Second Testament transliterates names to help readers understand the ancient context. This makes the text feel foreign and distant, which is appropriate, as it helps readers dig deeper into cultural exegesis. McKnight believes that being familiar with the text can be a hindrance to truly understanding it.

00:15:47 - Familiarity with the Text,

Familiarity with the text can sometimes

00:16:13 - The Impact of Names on Reading,

Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the impact of names on reading and how different names can lead readers to think differently and understand a text in a new way. He suggests that using the original Greek text can take readers into the first-century Christian world and help them understand the text in a new light.

00:18:10 - Women in Ministry,

Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the controversy around women pastors, using the example of the lack of pastors in the Bible. He suggests that titles such as Piscopos, Diaconos, and Presbutaros were used instead. He also refers to Romans 16, which mentions several women involved in church ministry, including an apostle and a deacon.

00:22:54 - Multiculturalism in the Early Church,

Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the multicultural and multiracial nature of the early church, with a mix of slaves and free people, men and women, and Jews and Gentiles. He draws attention to the several women mentioned in Romans 16, performing ministries that today would be called pastoring.

00:27:39 - The Importance of Language,

Dr. Scot McKnight emphasizes the importance of language and translation, pointing out that the wrong translation can hurt people. He uses the example of King James' Bible, which made choices to keep its subjects subdued. He also discusses the power dynamics in evangelical churches and how they favor men and certain behaviors that have become manly.

00:33:10 - The Four Types of Power,

Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the four types of power: power over, power to influence, power with, and power for. He explains how power over is the most corrupted form of power and how it is prevalent in the business world, sports, and even the church. He also highlights the importance of using power for the good of others and sharing power with others.

00:35:25 - The Power With,

Dr. McKnight delves deeper into the concept of power with and how it involves the willingness to share power with someone else to achieve a mutually beneficial outcome. He cites his experience of co-authoring a book with a young man and how they worked together to create a cohesive product.

00:36:53 - Power For,

Dr. McKnight discusses the last type of power, power for, which involves using one's power for the good of another person. He cites Jesus Christ as an example of this type of power, as He came not to be served but to serve and give His life for others.

00:40:00 - Dealing with Spiritual Abuse,

Dr. McKnight advises people who are experiencing spiritual abuse or know someone who is to first become healthy enough to handle the blowback that comes with going public. He also stresses the importance of having a support system and following the proper protocols or guidelines for reporting abuse. Lastly, he emphasizes the need for patience and resilience as it may take a long time to see change.

00:50:50 - Abusing Power in Churches,

Dr. Scott McKnight discusses how some pastors and church leaders abuse their power, particularly with vulnerable members such as children. He encourages readers to follow his work in understanding power dynamics and using power for good, especially with survivors of abuse.

00:52:00 - The Way of Jesus,

Dr. Scott McKnight emphasizes the way of Jesus in using power for good and elevating others. He references the Kenosis passage in Philippians 2 and encourages listeners to learn how to understand and wield their power for the benefit of others.

00:53:38 - Call to Action,

Lori Adams-Brown issues a call to action for listeners to use their power for good, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages finding a survivor and listening to their story while respecting their autonomy and using power to elevate their voice and support them.

00:54:48 - Tov

Lori Adams-Brown references Dr. Scott McKnight and Laura Behringer's book, A Church Called TOV, and highlights the importance of using power in tov, or goodness, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages listeners to find ways to support survivors and let them lead the way in how they want to share their stories and move forward.

00:56:03 - Conclusion,

Lori Adams-Brown thanks listeners for their work in making a difference and encourages them to read Dr. Scot McKnight's book, Second Testament. She also hints at future episodes with Dr. Scot McKnight and his new book with Laura Barringer as a follow up to A Church Called TOV.

Appreciate the role of cultural context and precise translation in interpreting the Bible effectively.
Comprehend the various power dynamics at play within the church and their implications.
Recognize signs of spiritual abuse, ensuring adequate support for survivors.
Grasp the crucial need for responsible leadership and the ethical use of power.
Discover the valuable contributions of female scholars and survivors in the ministry.
Realize the importance of context and accurate translation in unlocking the true meaning of biblical passages.
Uncover diversities in church power dynamics and their impacts on members.
Identify the nature of spiritual abuse and the ways to help survivors heal.
Understand the significance of virtuous leadership and the fair exercise of power for communal benefit.
Shed light on the often-overlooked perspectives of women scholars and abuse survivors in ministry.

Follow the podcast at:

Join our Difference Maker membership community for a ton of exclusive content for as little as $5/month. (The price of your a latte at your local coffee shop to enjoy a whole month of content.) Lori's Travel Tips are included as well as exclusive minisodes with our guests not available anywhere else. Join for deeper conversations and a little fun today at https://www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference

Keep making a difference wherever you are!

Lori Adams-Brown, Host & Executive Producer

A World of Difference Podcast

Transcript

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,426
Welcome to the A World of Difference

2
00:00:04,426 --> 00:00:06,766
podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is

3
00:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606
a podcast for those who are different and

4
00:00:08,606 --> 00:00:12,718
want to make a difference. We have back on

5
00:00:12,718 --> 00:00:15,694
the podcast this week Dr. Scott McKnight,

6
00:00:15,694 --> 00:00:19,946
a huge friend and of many of you

7
00:00:19,946 --> 00:00:23,134
listening. He is very active in terms of

8
00:00:23,134 --> 00:00:26,066
not only his writing, but is also an

9
00:00:26,066 --> 00:00:28,086
advocate in the survivor community. Scott

10
00:00:28,086 --> 00:00:31,174
welcome back to the podcast It's great to

11
00:00:31,174 --> 00:00:33,106
have you back on again Lori good to see

12
00:00:33,106 --> 00:00:36,294
you again Thank you Of course it's always

13
00:00:36,294 --> 00:00:37,686
great to see you.Scott just being with

14
00:00:37,686 --> 00:00:40,218
someone who is knowledgeable who's written

15
00:00:40,218 --> 00:00:42,954
so many books How many books have you even

16
00:00:42,954 --> 00:00:46,586
written a this point do you even know Well

17
00:00:46,586 --> 00:00:49,242
I don't count them but Chris does I bet

18
00:00:49,242 --> 00:00:52,038
Chris does It's over 90 It's over 90 I

19
00:00:52,038 --> 00:00:53,866
think it's in close to that magic number

20
00:00:53,866 --> 00:00:57,406
Oh my goodness And you've released several

21
00:00:57,406 --> 00:01:00,270
recently You're like the human chat

22
00:01:00,270 --> 00:01:03,498
GPT.Who Needs chat GPT when you have Scott

23
00:01:03,498 --> 00:01:05,278
McKnight churning out like three books

24
00:01:05,278 --> 00:01:08,798
being released all like within also month

25
00:01:08,798 --> 00:01:11,906
Well I write four books a year for the

26
00:01:11,906 --> 00:01:13,262
everyday Bible studies so that's going on

27
00:01:13,262 --> 00:01:15,474
But this a been a very busy year because

28
00:01:15,474 --> 00:01:19,366
of COVID all these things have stacked up

29
00:01:19,366 --> 00:01:21,094
and publishers are getting them is has

30
00:01:21,094 --> 00:01:24,178
been number one year I guess in number of

31
00:01:24,178 --> 00:01:26,726
books that have come out Well we're

32
00:01:26,726 --> 00:01:28,546
excited and I'm enjoying everything you're

33
00:01:28,546 --> 00:01:31,018
writing and your substac obviously which

34
00:01:31,018 --> 00:01:33,034
is you're just constantly writing and

35
00:01:33,034 --> 00:01:36,234
helping us understand in Illinois. a

36
00:01:36,234 --> 00:01:38,186
deeper way But this book is really

37
00:01:38,186 --> 00:01:39,658
exciting because you have decided to work

38
00:01:39,658 --> 00:01:41,706
on another English translation of the New

39
00:01:41,706 --> 00:01:44,190
Testament which is a huge undertaking Help

40
00:01:44,190 --> 00:01:47,754
us understand why you took this on and

41
00:01:47,754 --> 00:01:52,554
what it means to you To do this work.Yes

42
00:01:52,554 --> 00:01:54,846
and it's a good question And I've asked

43
00:01:54,846 --> 00:01:58,334
myself this question because so many

44
00:01:58,334 --> 00:02:00,014
people keep asking me this question Why do

45
00:02:00,014 --> 00:02:03,074
this Well one way to put it is I think our

46
00:02:03,074 --> 00:02:05,710
capacity or ability to translate Greek New

47
00:02:05,710 --> 00:02:08,134
Testament Greek into a called dynamic

48
00:02:08,134 --> 00:02:10,166
equivalents or something that is thought

49
00:02:10,166 --> 00:02:12,962
for thought between Greek and English has

50
00:02:12,962 --> 00:02:15,974
reached constantly level of near

51
00:02:15,974 --> 00:02:17,862
perfection And with the quickness of being

52
00:02:17,862 --> 00:02:20,774
able to publish we keep getting new

53
00:02:20,774 --> 00:02:23,002
translations.But I mean there's very

54
00:02:23,002 --> 00:02:24,586
little improvement on Nt rights the

55
00:02:24,586 --> 00:02:26,874
Kingdom New Testament or if you like the

56
00:02:26,874 --> 00:02:30,922
NIV the NIV 2011 or if you like the New

57
00:02:30,922 --> 00:02:33,210
Living Translation those are very good

58
00:02:33,210 --> 00:02:35,102
translations who are trying to find

59
00:02:35,102 --> 00:02:36,222
dynamic English equivalents to Greek

60
00:02:36,222 --> 00:02:38,094
sentences In the process I have

61
00:02:38,094 --> 00:02:40,254
encountered so many people who are stunned

62
00:02:40,254 --> 00:02:41,646
to discover that the New Testament was

63
00:02:41,646 --> 00:02:46,706
actually written in Greek And I say oh

64
00:02:46,706 --> 00:02:48,066
well the Greek sentence doesn't actually

65
00:02:48,066 --> 00:02:49,154
go like that but that's are nice

66
00:02:49,154 --> 00:02:53,438
equivalent So over and over I've tried to

67
00:02:53,438 --> 00:02:57,158
show students and audiences sunday school

68
00:02:57,158 --> 00:02:58,966
classes whatever that the Greek sentence

69
00:02:58,966 --> 00:03:02,066
is not quite so clever as the English

70
00:03:02,066 --> 00:03:06,374
sentence and that we sometimes miss things

71
00:03:06,374 --> 00:03:08,122
when we make it a natural English

72
00:03:08,122 --> 00:03:11,434
equivalent For instance okay I don't think

73
00:03:11,434 --> 00:03:13,914
you're old enough to have grown up with

74
00:03:13,914 --> 00:03:17,526
the King James but you grew up in circles

75
00:03:17,526 --> 00:03:20,250
that were probably using the King

76
00:03:20,250 --> 00:03:23,038
James.Yeah I grew up in Spanish Speaking

77
00:03:23,038 --> 00:03:25,594
Reyna Valeda was what we use but the

78
00:03:25,594 --> 00:03:29,534
English one was often King James when we

79
00:03:29,534 --> 00:03:31,502
did it Okay And there is a famous

80
00:03:31,502 --> 00:03:34,834
expression in Paul that he uses Meganoita

81
00:03:34,834 --> 00:03:39,346
in Greek It's translated in the KJV as God

82
00:03:39,346 --> 00:03:41,186
forbid.And I remember in college my Greek

83
00:03:41,186 --> 00:03:46,034
teacher telling me that he said this is

84
00:03:46,034 --> 00:03:48,486
the taking of the Lord's name in vain

85
00:03:48,486 --> 00:03:50,566
which it's wasn't but it really got my

86
00:03:50,566 --> 00:03:52,502
attention He said the word God is not

87
00:03:52,502 --> 00:03:56,262
mentioned there It just says May it never

88
00:03:56,262 --> 00:03:58,566
be And that's different than God forbid

89
00:03:58,566 --> 00:04:00,954
And so a more literal translation may it

90
00:04:00,954 --> 00:04:03,034
never be is preferred.And so over and over

91
00:04:03,034 --> 00:04:05,190
and over I've seen this in the New

92
00:04:05,190 --> 00:04:07,974
Testament that we can sometimes get back

93
00:04:07,974 --> 00:04:12,974
to the Greek and see things Now here's

94
00:04:12,974 --> 00:04:15,246
what happened Tom Wright wrote a

95
00:04:15,246 --> 00:04:18,014
translation of the New Testament kingdom

96
00:04:18,014 --> 00:04:19,534
New Testament then wrote a little series

97
00:04:19,534 --> 00:04:22,318
of commentaries along with it Actually he

98
00:04:22,318 --> 00:04:24,446
wrote the series of commentaries and

99
00:04:24,446 --> 00:04:27,698
translated the New Testament and it became

100
00:04:27,698 --> 00:04:31,810
the Kingdom New Testament and it was very

101
00:04:31,810 --> 00:04:35,038
good And then John Goldingay an Old

102
00:04:35,038 --> 00:04:38,294
Testament scholar a friend of Tom's did

103
00:04:38,294 --> 00:04:41,174
the same thing for the Old Testament.He

104
00:04:41,174 --> 00:04:44,210
translated it Then in England they

105
00:04:44,210 --> 00:04:47,138
published these two the and I think they

106
00:04:47,138 --> 00:04:50,110
called it the Everyday Bible or something

107
00:04:50,110 --> 00:04:52,826
like this It's a very nice translation I

108
00:04:52,826 --> 00:04:54,486
bought it immediately because I really

109
00:04:54,486 --> 00:04:58,054
wanted to see what Golden Gay was doing in

110
00:04:58,054 --> 00:05:00,026
the Old Testament And then university had

111
00:05:00,026 --> 00:05:01,834
rights to John golden gay's old testament

112
00:05:01,834 --> 00:05:03,502
called they first Testament.Zondervan had

113
00:05:03,502 --> 00:05:06,062
rights to Tom Wright's in New Testament So

114
00:05:06,062 --> 00:05:07,834
University couldn't print Tom Wright's

115
00:05:07,834 --> 00:05:10,654
with John Golden gay So in the United

116
00:05:10,654 --> 00:05:13,182
States they were published separately So I

117
00:05:13,182 --> 00:05:15,326
get University's the first testament by

118
00:05:15,326 --> 00:05:17,266
Golden Gay And I start reading it.And as

119
00:05:17,266 --> 00:05:26,386
I'm reading it I think this is not at all

120
00:05:26,386 --> 00:05:27,766
commensurate with what Tom Wright is doing

121
00:05:27,766 --> 00:05:31,080
I was at an academic meeting and I met the

122
00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,334
editor the main guy at university and I

123
00:05:33,334 --> 00:05:36,966
said those two translations don't belong

124
00:05:36,966 --> 00:05:40,986
together He said what do you mean I said

125
00:05:40,986 --> 00:05:42,106
Well Tom Wright's is a paraphrastic

126
00:05:42,106 --> 00:05:43,546
dynamic equivalent and John Goldingay is

127
00:05:43,546 --> 00:05:46,614
much more formal equivalent much more word

128
00:05:46,614 --> 00:05:51,694
for word And he said what do you think we

129
00:05:51,694 --> 00:05:54,880
should do about it I said well you need to

130
00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,786
have a translation like Golden Gay of the

131
00:05:57,786 --> 00:06:02,218
New Testament He said Would you do it And

132
00:06:02,218 --> 00:06:05,166
I looked at him I said yes I'll do that I

133
00:06:05,166 --> 00:06:08,642
want to do this because I believe in the

134
00:06:08,642 --> 00:06:12,210
power of a more a translation And a couple

135
00:06:12,210 --> 00:06:15,954
of the distinctives of Golden Gay's

136
00:06:15,954 --> 00:06:17,266
translation this he transliterated a Lori

137
00:06:17,266 --> 00:06:19,142
you know Spanish Okay When you take

138
00:06:19,142 --> 00:06:21,046
someone's name say Jose My next door

139
00:06:21,046 --> 00:06:25,494
neighbor's name is Jorge and you translate

140
00:06:25,494 --> 00:06:27,686
it as George or Joe That's not that

141
00:06:27,686 --> 00:06:30,146
person's name.There's something that is

142
00:06:30,146 --> 00:06:33,178
evoked by Jorge and Jose that is not

143
00:06:33,178 --> 00:06:35,354
evoked And there's something else that is

144
00:06:35,354 --> 00:06:37,754
evoked by Joe So John Golden Gate

145
00:06:37,754 --> 00:06:38,874
transliterated names which can be very

146
00:06:38,874 --> 00:06:41,434
confusing when some of these Hebrew names

147
00:06:41,434 --> 00:06:43,966
get really long And I really like that So

148
00:06:43,966 --> 00:06:48,222
I have Jesus.I do not a Jesus And one of

149
00:06:48,222 --> 00:06:50,542
the ones that is really clear on this is

150
00:06:50,542 --> 00:06:54,798
the name for the person who wrote what we

151
00:06:54,798 --> 00:06:58,194
call the letter of James His name is

152
00:06:58,194 --> 00:07:00,562
Yakobos or Jacob and we translate it

153
00:07:00,562 --> 00:07:02,660
asking me because it comes through Old

154
00:07:02,660 --> 00:07:06,022
French and Old English into Yakimas So I

155
00:07:06,022 --> 00:07:10,534
think there's capacity big difference

156
00:07:10,534 --> 00:07:14,920
between calling someone Jacob and calling

157
00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,620
someone James Jacob evokes equivalents

158
00:07:18,620 --> 00:07:22,442
patriarch.So that one right there is one

159
00:07:22,442 --> 00:07:25,546
that really made a big difference for me

160
00:07:25,546 --> 00:07:29,514
And so I transliterate all names first

161
00:07:29,514 --> 00:07:32,334
names We don't have last names of course

162
00:07:32,334 --> 00:07:35,082
and it just shows up Petros Not Peter.Yuda

163
00:07:35,082 --> 00:07:39,742
not Judas And all the things start showing

164
00:07:39,742 --> 00:07:43,470
up in different ways And that was just one

165
00:07:43,470 --> 00:07:45,926
illustration of trying to stick with the

166
00:07:45,926 --> 00:07:49,154
original text But my translation is sort

167
00:07:49,154 --> 00:07:51,886
of clunky because it's formally equivalent

168
00:07:51,886 --> 00:07:56,022
It doesn't sound like English at times and

169
00:07:56,022 --> 00:08:00,294
it will make people slow down and they'll

170
00:08:00,294 --> 00:08:02,182
get a little irritated.And when they get

171
00:08:02,182 --> 00:08:06,182
irritated I am very happy because I've

172
00:08:06,182 --> 00:08:08,842
slowed them down and made them think about

173
00:08:08,842 --> 00:08:12,474
what the New Testament a says rather than

174
00:08:12,474 --> 00:08:17,530
what they're familiar with Yes I just felt

175
00:08:17,530 --> 00:08:21,386
it very differently I haven't read it all

176
00:08:21,386 --> 00:08:24,122
yet but the parts that I've read so far

177
00:08:24,122 --> 00:08:27,920
that's what immediately struck me was it

178
00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:35,406
takes us back to a time and a place that

179
00:08:35,406 --> 00:08:39,154
feels foreign and distant And it should

180
00:08:39,154 --> 00:08:40,946
because if it feels like Jacob is our next

181
00:08:40,946 --> 00:08:43,362
door neighbor and he has a suburban house

182
00:08:43,362 --> 00:08:46,338
in the suburbs of Chicago and he's white

183
00:08:46,338 --> 00:08:48,486
and sometimes in white evangelical spaces

184
00:08:48,486 --> 00:08:49,926
it does seem as though it's become so

185
00:08:49,926 --> 00:08:50,998
familiar We have so many English

186
00:08:50,998 --> 00:08:52,646
translations.We have books that have

187
00:08:52,646 --> 00:08:55,762
covers on them that make it look like

188
00:08:55,762 --> 00:09:00,486
people who we would interact with now in

189
00:09:00,486 --> 00:09:04,938
this time and space in English And so

190
00:09:04,938 --> 00:09:06,794
there is something just alone about

191
00:09:06,794 --> 00:09:09,986
keeping he name the way that it was that

192
00:09:09,986 --> 00:09:13,310
automatically I felt like my whole body

193
00:09:13,310 --> 00:09:15,806
kind of reacted to In attention. good way

194
00:09:15,806 --> 00:09:18,462
like wow it Feels the way it should feel

195
00:09:18,462 --> 00:09:23,522
In the sense that I need to dig than

196
00:09:23,522 --> 00:09:28,030
little deeper on more a exegesis to

197
00:09:28,030 --> 00:09:32,034
understand really what was going on as

198
00:09:32,034 --> 00:09:34,126
opposed to imagining this scene in my

199
00:09:34,126 --> 00:09:35,026
neighborhood.Right.Not Mary but Miriam or

200
00:09:35,026 --> 00:09:37,390
Maria Or Maria So it's different in the

201
00:09:37,390 --> 00:09:40,678
New Testament So it's when it gets to be

202
00:09:40,678 --> 00:09:43,366
geographical places that Golden a goes a

203
00:09:43,366 --> 00:09:45,862
little different than I do But by and a

204
00:09:45,862 --> 00:09:48,102
transliterating names was one of the

205
00:09:48,102 --> 00:09:50,078
characteristics.Lori one of the things

206
00:09:50,078 --> 00:09:52,342
with New Testament especially the Bible is

207
00:09:52,342 --> 00:09:55,658
we are so familiar with it that when

208
00:09:55,658 --> 00:09:57,146
something is unlike what we're familiar

209
00:09:57,146 --> 00:09:59,994
with we think it's wrong Or this a my

210
00:09:59,994 --> 00:10:02,998
experience in reading Golden Gay the first

211
00:10:02,998 --> 00:10:07,834
time I at times would say I feel like I've

212
00:10:07,834 --> 00:10:09,726
never read this verse in my life And I

213
00:10:09,726 --> 00:10:11,978
thought well I have I've got all my

214
00:10:11,978 --> 00:10:15,650
Bibles.And one time I went to one of my

215
00:10:15,650 --> 00:10:17,646
Bibles and it was underlined you know the

216
00:10:17,646 --> 00:10:21,038
verse And I thought this one is not like

217
00:10:21,038 --> 00:10:24,814
John Golden gaze at all So it's that

218
00:10:24,814 --> 00:10:28,114
familiarity that I'm trying to crack into

219
00:10:28,114 --> 00:10:34,162
is to make the Bible a little bit more

220
00:10:34,162 --> 00:10:37,586
unfamiliar print order to fill out the

221
00:10:37,586 --> 00:10:38,898
meaning of what that text is actually

222
00:10:38,898 --> 00:10:42,186
saying Yeah So in your perspective how

223
00:10:42,186 --> 00:10:44,154
does this change how we read it Therefore

224
00:10:44,154 --> 00:10:46,922
as we have these names that sound not like

225
00:10:46,922 --> 00:10:50,154
our next door neighbor how would that

226
00:10:50,154 --> 00:10:53,694
cause us to read it differently Well I

227
00:10:53,694 --> 00:10:55,486
think in academic sense you've helped us

228
00:10:55,486 --> 00:10:58,126
answer that question We're going to say oh

229
00:10:58,126 --> 00:11:02,446
that guy is not English He's a Jew with

230
00:11:02,446 --> 00:11:03,902
said, Greek translation of his name or

231
00:11:03,902 --> 00:11:06,318
something like that Yaakovos.And it's

232
00:11:06,318 --> 00:11:10,110
going to make us think of that We're going

233
00:11:10,110 --> 00:11:13,426
to go back into that cultural mindset And

234
00:11:13,426 --> 00:11:14,386
because I don't use English grammar all

235
00:11:14,386 --> 00:11:16,146
the time but I let the Greek text and

236
00:11:16,146 --> 00:11:18,246
sometimes be a chunky and clunky as it is

237
00:11:18,246 --> 00:11:20,502
rather than smooth it out because after

238
00:11:20,502 --> 00:11:21,686
all someone might not understand something

239
00:11:21,686 --> 00:11:24,662
Well I would like you to come to my Greek

240
00:11:24,662 --> 00:11:27,974
classes when I teach Greek because the

241
00:11:27,974 --> 00:11:31,434
students a going I don't understand a

242
00:11:31,434 --> 00:11:34,074
going on with you That's the way they

243
00:11:34,074 --> 00:11:40,466
should feel.It's going to slow us down and

244
00:11:40,466 --> 00:11:47,470
it's going to take us into another world

245
00:11:47,470 --> 00:11:51,150
which is the first century Christian world

246
00:11:51,150 --> 00:11:56,478
and we're going to hear the text in a

247
00:11:56,478 --> 00:11:59,346
slightly different way Yeah And this is

248
00:11:59,346 --> 00:12:03,106
good for us because when it comes to

249
00:12:03,106 --> 00:12:04,706
verses that get put on BOOKMARKS and

250
00:12:04,706 --> 00:12:07,826
cherry picked and taken out of context so

251
00:12:07,826 --> 00:12:10,594
often in our white evangelical world here

252
00:12:10,594 --> 00:12:12,354
especially it doesn't help us understand

253
00:12:12,354 --> 00:12:15,942
more deeply what was going on So the whole

254
00:12:15,942 --> 00:12:17,974
conversation I guess around woman pastors

255
00:12:17,974 --> 00:12:20,426
for example would be a great example of

256
00:12:20,426 --> 00:12:25,260
this because I remember back when I was in

257
00:12:25,260 --> 00:12:27,354
seminary here in Northern California in

258
00:12:27,354 --> 00:12:29,562
Mill Valley it was Golden Gate Seminary at

259
00:12:29,562 --> 00:12:35,054
the time in the late ninety translate one

260
00:12:35,054 --> 00:12:36,894
of the theology professors whenever people

261
00:12:36,894 --> 00:12:41,006
would ask him do you believe in women

262
00:12:41,006 --> 00:12:43,778
pastors He would often say well show me

263
00:12:43,778 --> 00:12:48,226
where there's and pastor in the Bible with

264
00:12:48,226 --> 00:12:51,394
a title.So he would pose another question

265
00:12:51,394 --> 00:12:54,546
which is often what Jesus would do as well

266
00:12:54,546 --> 00:13:01,718
around a lot of questions he was given but

267
00:13:01,718 --> 00:13:03,174
also he would help people understand

268
00:13:03,174 --> 00:13:07,634
imagine the scene These are house churches

269
00:13:07,634 --> 00:13:11,674
These are churches meeting under

270
00:13:11,674 --> 00:13:13,146
persecution It's not First Baptist over

271
00:13:13,146 --> 00:13:16,202
here on the corner where there's pews and

272
00:13:16,202 --> 00:13:19,386
there's illustration pulpit This was not

273
00:13:19,386 --> 00:13:22,986
the scene.And so it had to lead you to a

274
00:13:22,986 --> 00:13:25,982
place where you asked other questions And

275
00:13:25,982 --> 00:13:28,974
I think that's often what people don't do

276
00:13:28,974 --> 00:13:31,962
When people ask you about like woman a for

277
00:13:31,962 --> 00:13:34,402
example that's a big controversy right now

278
00:13:34,402 --> 00:13:37,006
in the Southern Baptist Convention

279
00:13:37,006 --> 00:13:38,802
Saddleback has been kicked out over it

280
00:13:38,802 --> 00:13:42,260
It's what big deal.How do you answer that

281
00:13:42,260 --> 00:13:47,414
question about women pastors Well I think

282
00:13:47,414 --> 00:13:49,218
whoever your seminary professor was was

283
00:13:49,218 --> 00:13:50,838
right in some sense by saying the New

284
00:13:50,838 --> 00:13:52,646
Testament doesn't really call these people

285
00:13:52,646 --> 00:13:56,038
pastors You could say that there's takes

286
00:13:56,038 --> 00:13:58,326
pastoring function but they had different

287
00:13:58,326 --> 00:14:02,682
if you want to use titles they had it like

288
00:14:02,682 --> 00:14:06,906
Piscopos or we would translate bishop or

289
00:14:06,906 --> 00:14:09,574
Overseer and Diaconos which would be has a

290
00:14:09,574 --> 00:14:11,898
or a servant They had presbytur and

291
00:14:11,898 --> 00:14:17,482
Presbutaros which is and elder So they had

292
00:14:17,482 --> 00:14:19,470
names like that that they were using.And

293
00:14:19,470 --> 00:14:22,314
we so have clear cases of women

294
00:14:22,314 --> 00:14:24,462
functionally performing ministries that

295
00:14:24,462 --> 00:14:27,234
today we would have to call pastoring And

296
00:14:27,234 --> 00:14:31,566
here's something I was thinking of this

297
00:14:31,566 --> 00:14:33,954
yesterday Chris and I were taking and walk

298
00:14:33,954 --> 00:14:36,414
around the lake and I was thinking what

299
00:14:36,414 --> 00:14:38,774
what is Lori going to ask me about And I

300
00:14:38,774 --> 00:14:41,286
thought she might ask me about women in

301
00:14:41,286 --> 00:14:42,534
ministry.And I thought to. myself if

302
00:14:42,534 --> 00:14:46,454
someone just picked up romans chapter 16

303
00:14:46,454 --> 00:14:48,554
in the NIV or the whatever translation

304
00:14:48,554 --> 00:14:52,294
they use and I said to them I want you to

305
00:14:52,294 --> 00:14:54,266
circle If you write in your bible circle

306
00:14:54,266 --> 00:14:57,622
every name of imagining woman And I'd like

307
00:14:57,622 --> 00:15:04,810
to see how many of them you can actually

308
00:15:04,810 --> 00:15:07,290
get Right Because there's quite a few

309
00:15:07,290 --> 00:15:09,182
women mentioned in Romans 16 But because

310
00:15:09,182 --> 00:15:12,522
we don't know these names We don't even

311
00:15:12,522 --> 00:15:14,194
know different they're women or men We

312
00:15:14,194 --> 00:15:19,890
just gloss over them But about half the

313
00:15:19,890 --> 00:15:24,114
name not quite half the names in Romans 16

314
00:15:24,114 --> 00:15:27,174
are women And all kinds of things are

315
00:15:27,174 --> 00:15:30,434
mentioned about these women that they're

316
00:15:30,434 --> 00:15:32,086
doing in church ministry including being

317
00:15:32,086 --> 00:15:36,870
an apostle and being a deacon.Phoebe's a

318
00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:39,542
deacon and Junia not Junius Junia is an

319
00:15:39,542 --> 00:15:41,686
apostle and there are people who are

320
00:15:41,686 --> 00:15:43,900
risking their lives for the sake of Paul

321
00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:46,438
and his ministry and he's affirming all

322
00:15:46,438 --> 00:15:48,218
these women involved When you all of a

323
00:15:48,218 --> 00:15:49,626
sudden recognize that this is quite a

324
00:15:49,626 --> 00:15:51,838
mixed group of slaves and free of men and

325
00:15:51,838 --> 00:15:53,294
women of Jews and Gentiles you realize

326
00:15:53,294 --> 00:15:56,062
that this church was the embodiment of

327
00:15:56,062 --> 00:15:58,142
that multicultural multiethnic maybe

328
00:15:58,142 --> 00:16:01,614
multiracial depending how you define the

329
00:16:01,614 --> 00:16:04,270
word race multiracial church And there are

330
00:16:04,270 --> 00:16:07,026
all in of women there But that Phoebe

331
00:16:07,026 --> 00:16:10,162
thing is really interesting to me is

332
00:16:10,162 --> 00:16:12,514
Phoebe is a wealthy woman.Paul uses the

333
00:16:12,514 --> 00:16:14,866
word prostatus for her which sort of as

334
00:16:14,866 --> 00:16:17,198
the idea of it could be a benefactor but

335
00:16:17,198 --> 00:16:18,998
it also could be a leader And she is read

336
00:16:18,998 --> 00:16:21,986
deacon in the church of Kencria which is

337
00:16:21,986 --> 00:16:25,414
next to Corinth and she's in the location

338
00:16:25,414 --> 00:16:29,846
in say, letter where you often list or

339
00:16:29,846 --> 00:16:33,306
mention the person who is carrying and

340
00:16:33,306 --> 00:16:38,282
taking care of this letter to get from

341
00:16:38,282 --> 00:16:40,286
Kencria Paul's hands to whoever is going

342
00:16:40,286 --> 00:16:42,714
to read it going Rome she's the woman That

343
00:16:42,714 --> 00:16:46,046
person would also have been instructed

344
00:16:46,046 --> 00:16:50,014
along with others how to read the letter

345
00:16:50,014 --> 00:16:53,022
what words to emphasize in what context

346
00:16:53,022 --> 00:16:56,850
she would have been taught how to respond

347
00:16:56,850 --> 00:17:00,514
to the question She had to know a lot of

348
00:17:00,514 --> 00:17:03,346
what Paul was doing and thinking in order

349
00:17:03,346 --> 00:17:04,962
to read this letter aloud in those

350
00:17:04,962 --> 00:17:06,638
churches at least five house churches

351
00:17:06,638 --> 00:17:08,646
going, Romans 16 understand be able to

352
00:17:08,646 --> 00:17:10,760
respond to questions that people are going

353
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:15,926
to ask And you can't read Romans in the

354
00:17:15,926 --> 00:17:18,554
first century without a bunch of questions

355
00:17:18,554 --> 00:17:21,754
being popped.And she and whoever she

356
00:17:21,754 --> 00:17:25,226
trained now maybe she didn't read it I in

357
00:17:25,226 --> 00:17:29,114
she probably did but it doesn't matter

358
00:17:29,114 --> 00:17:34,046
I've got it in print now so I have to

359
00:17:34,046 --> 00:17:37,326
believe that she was the reader but she

360
00:17:37,326 --> 00:17:40,206
would have been perceived as far more than

361
00:17:40,206 --> 00:17:45,374
a servant of Paul She was an agent of the

362
00:17:45,374 --> 00:17:47,858
Gospel and an agent of this letter the

363
00:17:47,858 --> 00:17:50,062
most significant letter that Paul wrote in

364
00:17:50,062 --> 00:17:51,762
the history of the church a is an apostle

365
00:17:51,762 --> 00:17:53,458
and some people were so uncomfortable with

366
00:17:53,458 --> 00:17:56,834
her in an apostle that they changed her

367
00:17:56,834 --> 00:17:59,110
name from Junia to Junius to make her a

368
00:17:59,110 --> 00:18:00,806
man.And there is no record in the first

369
00:18:00,806 --> 00:18:03,318
century of any man being named Junius So

370
00:18:03,318 --> 00:18:06,598
as a pacifist I often say it's okay to

371
00:18:06,598 --> 00:18:08,594
kill a nonexistent male Junius It's not

372
00:18:08,594 --> 00:18:10,838
going to hurt anyone and we've slayed him

373
00:18:10,838 --> 00:18:14,246
And now we realize that this is a woman

374
00:18:14,246 --> 00:18:15,786
who was an apostle of significance in the

375
00:18:15,786 --> 00:18:17,978
early church he was a church planting

376
00:18:17,978 --> 00:18:20,022
leader in the Pauline Mission and was

377
00:18:20,022 --> 00:18:22,310
probably sent ahead of Paul with her

378
00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:25,262
husband andronygus to plant churches.So I

379
00:18:25,262 --> 00:18:27,866
deal with these texts quite a bit at

380
00:18:27,866 --> 00:18:29,646
Northern and I think a there's good

381
00:18:29,646 --> 00:18:31,246
evidence that women actively engaged in

382
00:18:31,246 --> 00:18:33,166
ministry in the first century My a Nijay

383
00:18:33,166 --> 00:18:35,338
Gupta has asked new book Tell Her Story

384
00:18:35,338 --> 00:18:37,786
but he also thinks that Nympha in Colossey

385
00:18:37,786 --> 00:18:40,402
was a pastor Now we can't prove that but I

386
00:18:40,402 --> 00:18:42,094
told him I like the conclusion and

387
00:18:42,094 --> 00:18:43,426
translations make Saddleback difference

388
00:18:43,426 --> 00:18:44,514
here So if you translate that Junius

389
00:18:44,514 --> 00:18:47,254
you've just turned a woman into that man

390
00:18:47,254 --> 00:18:52,374
Absolutely yes.And when we had Nijay on

391
00:18:52,374 --> 00:18:55,430
the podcast he mentioned was lot of those

392
00:18:55,430 --> 00:18:57,962
things talking about his latest book Tell

393
00:18:57,962 --> 00:19:03,306
Her Story And I think that you've said

394
00:19:03,306 --> 00:19:07,194
this before a many people are saying this

395
00:19:07,194 --> 00:19:08,954
You know these aren't new things You know

396
00:19:08,954 --> 00:19:12,154
we as long as we're digging and

397
00:19:12,154 --> 00:19:14,174
understanding and reading different

398
00:19:14,174 --> 00:19:15,902
perspectives different theologians maybe

399
00:19:15,902 --> 00:19:22,782
who if you only a English fine you can

400
00:19:22,782 --> 00:19:25,886
still find English translations of

401
00:19:25,886 --> 00:19:27,986
theologians who aren't native English

402
00:19:27,986 --> 00:19:29,460
speakers We just need different

403
00:19:29,460 --> 00:19:35,002
perspectives to help us understand because

404
00:19:35,002 --> 00:19:41,560
language matters and the way we translate

405
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,542
things matter.And obviously no theologian

406
00:19:43,542 --> 00:19:49,126
worth their salt would claim that Junia is

407
00:19:49,126 --> 00:19:50,758
a male at this point like that's been

408
00:19:50,758 --> 00:19:52,566
debunked heavily and yet somehow people

409
00:19:52,566 --> 00:19:54,058
are still uncomfortable But all of this

410
00:19:54,058 --> 00:19:55,466
does matter because it forms how we see

411
00:19:55,466 --> 00:19:57,398
things And translating that Phoebe was a

412
00:19:57,398 --> 00:20:01,774
servant as opposed to deacon that's like a

413
00:20:01,774 --> 00:20:05,086
choice that people make in translation All

414
00:20:05,086 --> 00:20:10,000
of those things form our thoughts But

415
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,634
you've not only dealt with that in terms

416
00:20:12,634 --> 00:20:15,982
of translation of the Bible in a church

417
00:20:15,982 --> 00:20:21,406
called Tove which is what you and Laura

418
00:20:21,406 --> 00:20:23,122
were on the last time we were on the

419
00:20:23,122 --> 00:20:27,126
podcast together.It's how words are formed

420
00:20:27,126 --> 00:20:29,702
in a church culture to in of flip the

421
00:20:29,702 --> 00:20:33,254
script or create false narratives how

422
00:20:33,254 --> 00:20:34,774
words matter in our faith spaces And

423
00:20:34,774 --> 00:20:37,814
congratulations I think you're in the

424
00:20:37,814 --> 00:20:39,834
third printing Did I just see Laura post

425
00:20:39,834 --> 00:20:42,762
something about that Yeah we are in the

426
00:20:42,762 --> 00:20:43,994
third printing.Yeah.When Laura pestered me

427
00:20:43,994 --> 00:20:47,702
to write this book and I said I'm not a

428
00:20:47,702 --> 00:20:51,026
specialist on this an I don't want to

429
00:20:51,026 --> 00:20:56,122
become someone a people go to for this

430
00:20:56,122 --> 00:20:58,846
kind of topic because I I'm are New

431
00:20:58,846 --> 00:21:00,318
Testament professor you know Well 178

432
00:21:00,318 --> 00:21:03,006
podcasts later I'm I'm now consulted on on

433
00:21:03,006 --> 00:21:06,738
church culture and we have a second book

434
00:21:06,738 --> 00:21:09,282
coming out in September called Pivot that

435
00:21:09,282 --> 00:21:11,906
is about helping churches But yes words

436
00:21:11,906 --> 00:21:15,226
deeply matter and you nailed it with

437
00:21:15,226 --> 00:21:19,974
flipping the script Is that when you and I

438
00:21:19,974 --> 00:21:26,146
know what darvo a I'm surprised by the

439
00:21:26,146 --> 00:21:29,206
number of people who don't know what darvo

440
00:21:29,206 --> 00:21:31,626
means after as often as we deal with this

441
00:21:31,626 --> 00:21:34,026
perpetrators of abuse have an amazing

442
00:21:34,026 --> 00:21:38,662
capacity to turn the story around a make

443
00:21:38,662 --> 00:21:41,918
themselves Paul victim of the person that

444
00:21:41,918 --> 00:21:45,406
they victimized and turn the victim into a

445
00:21:45,406 --> 00:21:46,606
perpetrator of violence a the

446
00:21:46,606 --> 00:21:49,280
perpetrator.I think I'd have to slow down

447
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,486
to say that a but words really do matter

448
00:21:53,486 --> 00:21:59,986
and those words can wound and they can

449
00:21:59,986 --> 00:22:02,420
hurt for location long time When you start

450
00:22:02,420 --> 00:22:05,362
publicly degrading another person's status

451
00:22:05,362 --> 00:22:07,986
and gifts and personhood it really hurts

452
00:22:07,986 --> 00:22:11,974
And that's why words matter And we need to

453
00:22:11,974 --> 00:22:14,450
be careful with the words we use for

454
00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:18,282
translations because if we don't get it

455
00:22:18,282 --> 00:22:22,106
right it can hurt people Yeah.Last June I

456
00:22:22,106 --> 00:22:26,170
mean it was really just maybe a week or

457
00:22:26,170 --> 00:22:31,066
what few days after the announcement came

458
00:22:31,066 --> 00:22:33,134
out that Andy Wood was taking over for

459
00:22:33,134 --> 00:22:34,974
Rick Warren a Saddleback Church And my

460
00:22:34,974 --> 00:22:37,982
husband and I have spoken out publicly

461
00:22:37,982 --> 00:22:41,534
about that abuse and some of it the last

462
00:22:41,534 --> 00:22:45,074
time we recorded together actually I was

463
00:22:45,074 --> 00:22:47,186
still working at Echo Church but didn't

464
00:22:47,186 --> 00:22:49,838
know it was within Days of being fired And

465
00:22:49,838 --> 00:22:52,146
the day your podcast released was the day

466
00:22:52,146 --> 00:22:56,718
I was fired which is kind of weird Not

467
00:22:56,718 --> 00:22:58,486
weird actually I don't want to use the

468
00:22:58,486 --> 00:23:01,778
word weird.I feel like God was using that

469
00:23:01,778 --> 00:23:04,086
as a sign in a lot of ways to help me

470
00:23:04,086 --> 00:23:08,586
understand He had walked before me And

471
00:23:08,586 --> 00:23:11,866
your book really opened my eyes and gave

472
00:23:11,866 --> 00:23:14,986
me language to understand what at the time

473
00:23:14,986 --> 00:23:17,114
felt weird or confusing but helped me

474
00:23:17,114 --> 00:23:20,586
understand what somehow I knew in my body

475
00:23:20,586 --> 00:23:24,926
before my brain was ready to admit it or

476
00:23:24,926 --> 00:23:30,174
my mouth was able to say the words was

477
00:23:30,174 --> 00:23:32,510
that there was apostle, lot of abuse of

478
00:23:32,510 --> 00:23:36,514
power going on And so my husband and I as

479
00:23:36,514 --> 00:23:38,114
we were touring around Scotland for our

480
00:23:38,114 --> 00:23:39,966
25th wedding anniversary which just within

481
00:23:39,966 --> 00:23:45,070
days of this announcement a we went to

482
00:23:45,070 --> 00:23:49,922
Church of the Holy Root up in Sterling

483
00:23:49,922 --> 00:23:52,934
where King James had his coronation I

484
00:23:52,934 --> 00:23:56,086
guess he was like ten months old when he

485
00:23:56,086 --> 00:24:00,186
had is a as a baby.But they have under the

486
00:24:00,186 --> 00:24:03,878
case the have a King James Bible and the

487
00:24:03,878 --> 00:24:06,922
ladies that give the tour told us his

488
00:24:06,922 --> 00:24:10,574
mother Mary Queen of Scots was not allowed

489
00:24:10,574 --> 00:24:15,306
to be there So I already thinking mommy

490
00:24:15,306 --> 00:24:19,086
issues and poor baby right But also when

491
00:24:19,086 --> 00:24:22,906
he chose to translate I mean I'd already

492
00:24:22,906 --> 00:24:26,094
read Dr Beth Allison Burr's book Making a

493
00:24:26,094 --> 00:24:27,714
Biblical Womanhood.I've read quite a bit

494
00:24:27,714 --> 00:24:30,814
about this over the years he ways that he

495
00:24:30,814 --> 00:24:34,706
chose to translate certain words even in

496
00:24:34,706 --> 00:24:36,246
Genesis I know that, your translation is

497
00:24:36,246 --> 00:24:42,886
in the New Testament that we're talking

498
00:24:42,886 --> 00:24:45,334
about but even words in Genesis that were

499
00:24:45,334 --> 00:24:48,794
chosen about women and Ezra connecto being

500
00:24:48,794 --> 00:24:54,998
translated like what is a help me I don't

501
00:24:54,998 --> 00:24:57,146
even know what that means But there's

502
00:24:57,146 --> 00:24:59,114
these words right A piece of meat.I don't

503
00:24:59,114 --> 00:25:03,066
know But there's words that have done harm

504
00:25:03,066 --> 00:25:05,374
to women and men over the years Because of

505
00:25:05,374 --> 00:25:07,838
the ways that words were chosen And I

506
00:25:07,838 --> 00:25:10,414
think that it was very obvious to me with

507
00:25:10,414 --> 00:25:15,346
all the power dynamics of that church and

508
00:25:15,346 --> 00:25:18,482
all that it meant for a king to be

509
00:25:18,482 --> 00:25:20,466
involved in translations translation of

510
00:25:20,466 --> 00:25:23,502
the Bible and choices he made to keep his

511
00:25:23,502 --> 00:25:26,638
subject subdued How do you feel like the

512
00:25:26,638 --> 00:25:28,950
role of power dynamics needs to be

513
00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:32,066
addressed better in our conversations in

514
00:25:32,066 --> 00:25:34,326
church in general Well yes Now when you

515
00:25:34,326 --> 00:25:37,286
were talking about pyro dynamics I got to

516
00:25:37,286 --> 00:25:40,930
thinking there's a Greek word in the New

517
00:25:40,930 --> 00:25:42,486
Testament Andrea And if I would have

518
00:25:42,486 --> 00:25:44,170
followed my theory totally consistently

519
00:25:44,170 --> 00:25:48,566
which I did I never felt I had to but I

520
00:25:48,566 --> 00:25:51,626
wanted to try as much as possible I would

521
00:25:51,626 --> 00:25:54,382
have translated this word manly feel manly

522
00:25:54,382 --> 00:25:55,902
But most translations have the word

523
00:25:55,902 --> 00:25:57,326
courage.And Beth Alzembar actually wrote

524
00:25:57,326 --> 00:26:01,166
me She said Scott I think you're the only

525
00:26:01,166 --> 00:26:02,926
translator of the New Testament who could

526
00:26:02,926 --> 00:26:04,770
get by with using the word manly there

527
00:26:04,770 --> 00:26:07,346
because everybody would know you don't

528
00:26:07,346 --> 00:26:09,266
mean a they think it means But what

529
00:26:09,266 --> 00:26:12,370
happens if you do translate that as manly

530
00:26:12,370 --> 00:26:16,098
is that it becomes that men are the ones

531
00:26:16,098 --> 00:26:17,906
who have courage and can act manly So a

532
00:26:17,906 --> 00:26:19,734
man becomes the paradigm for the virtue

533
00:26:19,734 --> 00:26:26,258
and women have to succumb to the manliness

534
00:26:26,258 --> 00:26:29,414
of being manly So that right there

535
00:26:29,414 --> 00:26:32,762
illustrates the issue is a power is in the

536
00:26:32,762 --> 00:26:36,602
hands in the United States of men who are

537
00:26:36,602 --> 00:26:38,954
white who are educated tall and handsome

538
00:26:38,954 --> 00:26:44,902
and have a heritage of being able to be in

539
00:26:44,902 --> 00:26:50,266
the groups that are going to make the

540
00:26:50,266 --> 00:26:51,854
decisions.I'm reading Josephus right now a

541
00:26:51,854 --> 00:26:55,074
all of Herod's kids are in the right

542
00:26:55,074 --> 00:26:57,780
family except that Herod is a murderous

543
00:26:57,780 --> 00:27:03,726
father So they're not in the right family

544
00:27:03,726 --> 00:27:08,806
but if you're in the right family So I

545
00:27:08,806 --> 00:27:11,206
believe that power has been culturally

546
00:27:11,206 --> 00:27:12,386
scripted in evangelical churches to favor

547
00:27:12,386 --> 00:27:15,286
men and to favor certain kinds of behavior

548
00:27:15,286 --> 00:27:19,722
that I don't believe are necessarily

549
00:27:19,722 --> 00:27:24,586
manish but have become manish So I'll try

550
00:27:24,586 --> 00:27:29,978
to get out of that circle a little bit and

551
00:27:29,978 --> 00:27:34,494
I think that we can reduce this to four

552
00:27:34,494 --> 00:27:38,110
prepositions about the power dynamic In

553
00:27:38,110 --> 00:27:39,966
perpetrator. church the most dangerous

554
00:27:39,966 --> 00:27:46,386
form of power is power over which is

555
00:27:46,386 --> 00:27:48,626
connected to the idea of domination.And

556
00:27:48,626 --> 00:27:51,074
this is when someone says to you I'm going

557
00:27:51,074 --> 00:27:57,602
to do this because I can and because I

558
00:27:57,602 --> 00:28:03,622
want to and I don't care what it does to

559
00:28:03,622 --> 00:28:06,614
your life And a lot of church leaders do

560
00:28:06,614 --> 00:28:10,266
this when they're put on the spot or when

561
00:28:10,266 --> 00:28:11,706
they're exposed for having done something

562
00:28:11,706 --> 00:28:19,066
wrong rather than the humility to listen

563
00:28:19,066 --> 00:28:21,678
So the power over is the most corrupted or

564
00:28:21,678 --> 00:28:25,226
of power and it is everywhere in the Roman

565
00:28:25,226 --> 00:28:27,806
Empire in the first century And it is

566
00:28:27,806 --> 00:28:30,766
almost everywhere in sports it is almost

567
00:28:30,766 --> 00:28:33,802
everywhere in the business world and there

568
00:28:33,802 --> 00:28:36,974
is way too much of it in the we over a

569
00:28:36,974 --> 00:28:38,446
second characteristic And this is sort of

570
00:28:38,446 --> 00:28:40,322
the neutral understanding of power and

571
00:28:40,322 --> 00:28:42,462
that is the power to influence So it's the

572
00:28:42,462 --> 00:28:44,466
power two instead of power over it's power

573
00:28:44,466 --> 00:28:47,458
two And I have the power right now to turn

574
00:28:47,458 --> 00:28:48,882
off my computer I can do that if I

575
00:28:48,882 --> 00:28:51,158
want.And you have the power to silence me

576
00:28:51,158 --> 00:28:53,826
a to edit this thing so that what I say

577
00:28:53,826 --> 00:28:55,506
can before silenced That's the power to

578
00:28:55,506 --> 00:28:57,686
influence And we all have this in our

579
00:28:57,686 --> 00:28:59,594
families we have this in our neighborhoods

580
00:28:59,594 --> 00:29:05,514
in our churches I have this as a teacher I

581
00:29:05,514 --> 00:29:07,878
have the power to grade A student in a

582
00:29:07,878 --> 00:29:09,306
retaliatory way.I have the power to do

583
00:29:09,306 --> 00:29:11,178
that But I also have the power to

584
00:29:11,178 --> 00:29:13,514
influence students And if I begin to think

585
00:29:13,514 --> 00:29:16,222
in terms of influence it shifts me away

586
00:29:16,222 --> 00:29:18,730
from power over to power to do something

587
00:29:18,730 --> 00:29:20,474
constructive and positive Now I think it

588
00:29:20,474 --> 00:29:23,274
starts to get to be a radical move in

589
00:29:23,274 --> 00:29:26,378
Christianity when the third kind of power

590
00:29:26,378 --> 00:29:27,954
shows up The power with which is the

591
00:29:27,954 --> 00:29:29,826
ability or the willingness on the part of

592
00:29:29,826 --> 00:29:32,866
someone with power to share power with

593
00:29:32,866 --> 00:29:35,154
someone else to work with them in order

594
00:29:35,154 --> 00:29:37,398
that the can come up with a mutually

595
00:29:37,398 --> 00:29:39,126
agreeable product or result or platform or

596
00:29:39,126 --> 00:29:41,254
speech or book.And when I wrote the book

597
00:29:41,254 --> 00:29:44,774
on Revelation with Cody Matchett we work

598
00:29:44,774 --> 00:29:46,306
together and sometimes he'd write

599
00:29:46,306 --> 00:29:47,974
something and I'd think okay that's Cody's

600
00:29:47,974 --> 00:29:50,658
Mind and he's a co author He gets to say

601
00:29:50,658 --> 00:29:51,898
things like this And I wouldn't say it

602
00:29:51,898 --> 00:29:55,402
quite the same ways but I also say things

603
00:29:55,402 --> 00:29:58,826
that he wouldn't say Now the power there

604
00:29:58,826 --> 00:30:00,246
was asymmetrical because well I'm almost

605
00:30:00,246 --> 00:30:01,818
70 and he's probably about, 30 or

606
00:30:01,818 --> 00:30:04,766
something like that or 35 and he doesn't

607
00:30:04,766 --> 00:30:07,694
have Ezra PhD And he doesn't have a job

608
00:30:07,694 --> 00:30:09,342
like that of a professor but he's that

609
00:30:09,342 --> 00:30:11,758
very talented young man.So that's the

610
00:30:11,758 --> 00:30:14,014
power with And I think there's a lot of

611
00:30:14,014 --> 00:30:16,754
power with where Paul calls so many people

612
00:30:16,754 --> 00:30:18,754
his coworkers and the Greek word sun ergos

613
00:30:18,754 --> 00:30:21,346
that words sun at the beginning is this it

614
00:30:21,346 --> 00:30:23,698
He worked with Paul They worked with Paul

615
00:30:23,698 --> 00:30:27,218
They weren't under Paul they worked with

616
00:30:27,218 --> 00:30:28,838
him.Now he seemed to be the boss in some

617
00:30:28,838 --> 00:30:31,334
ways but that is a really dynamic word in

618
00:30:31,334 --> 00:30:34,006
Paul And the final one is power four So

619
00:30:34,006 --> 00:30:37,738
power over power two power with and power

620
00:30:37,738 --> 00:30:42,140
four And that is to use our power for the

621
00:30:42,140 --> 00:30:47,834
good of someone else Jesus said that he

622
00:30:47,834 --> 00:30:52,574
did not come to be served but to serve and

623
00:30:52,574 --> 00:30:57,294
to give his life Testament, ransom for

624
00:30:57,294 --> 00:31:01,630
many.It is when we take our platforms our

625
00:31:01,630 --> 00:31:03,886
power our circumscribed authority and hand

626
00:31:03,886 --> 00:31:05,506
it over to someone else to use for their

627
00:31:05,506 --> 00:31:08,034
giftedness and for what they can bring to

628
00:31:08,034 --> 00:31:13,230
the discussion or that they can contribute

629
00:31:13,230 --> 00:31:17,054
That's where the power dynamic in churches

630
00:31:17,054 --> 00:31:18,546
needs to start Moving away from power over

631
00:31:18,546 --> 00:31:20,610
and away from the neutral sense of power

632
00:31:20,610 --> 00:31:22,326
too toward a more Christian sense of

633
00:31:22,326 --> 00:31:25,126
sharing power and using our power The good

634
00:31:25,126 --> 00:31:27,834
of other people Yes if you're a leader of

635
00:31:27,834 --> 00:31:29,686
what you have responsibility.You have

636
00:31:29,686 --> 00:31:32,154
responsibility to make decisions and not

637
00:31:32,154 --> 00:31:36,026
everybody's going to agree with that And

638
00:31:36,026 --> 00:31:38,666
we don't always have to share the decision

639
00:31:38,666 --> 00:31:41,566
time Sometimes that I'm paradigm professor

640
00:31:41,566 --> 00:31:47,150
and I have to make a decision about the

641
00:31:47,150 --> 00:31:53,906
this student is going to get this grade or

642
00:31:53,906 --> 00:31:57,106
that grade And I don't call the student in

643
00:31:57,106 --> 00:32:02,722
to say now what grade would you like to

644
00:32:02,722 --> 00:32:08,440
have It's not tall shared discussion.But

645
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,760
by and a Christians are so unattached to

646
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,438
power over that they favor sharing power

647
00:32:14,438 --> 00:32:17,766
and using the power for the good of

648
00:32:17,766 --> 00:32:21,594
another And that's where I think churches

649
00:32:21,594 --> 00:32:23,446
can really make family, change.Yeah the

650
00:32:23,446 --> 00:32:25,626
power of giving power away I mean that's

651
00:32:25,626 --> 00:32:28,058
in of Jesus in a nutshell If we could just

652
00:32:28,058 --> 00:32:33,530
summarize his life and what he was doing

653
00:32:33,530 --> 00:32:38,094
and understand the pattern of how he was

654
00:32:38,094 --> 00:32:40,302
interacting with women and people who were

655
00:32:40,302 --> 00:32:44,050
marginalized and being intentional in that

656
00:32:44,050 --> 00:32:47,826
way And I just want to say I've seen you

657
00:32:47,826 --> 00:32:51,554
do that I mean you had definitely done

658
00:32:51,554 --> 00:32:55,330
that with me You didn't know me from

659
00:32:55,330 --> 00:32:59,510
anyone else other than power had a a

660
00:32:59,510 --> 00:33:05,590
interview before but you walked with me

661
00:33:05,590 --> 00:33:07,766
behind the scenes emails back and forth

662
00:33:07,766 --> 00:33:12,234
and praying for me and my family when we

663
00:33:12,234 --> 00:33:13,722
went through a difficult time calling out

664
00:33:13,722 --> 00:33:16,506
spiritual abuse that we ourselves had

665
00:33:16,506 --> 00:33:18,666
faced at the and of a megachurch pastor

666
00:33:18,666 --> 00:33:22,398
who ended up a year later getting even

667
00:33:22,398 --> 00:33:24,814
more power over more people.And at this

668
00:33:24,814 --> 00:33:27,774
point we have so many mutual friends that

669
00:33:27,774 --> 00:33:30,446
have also walked through things and helped

670
00:33:30,446 --> 00:33:34,626
us But just thank you for using your power

671
00:33:34,626 --> 00:33:38,260
in this way And I know that recently

672
00:33:38,260 --> 00:33:41,794
there's been a lot going on at the

673
00:33:41,794 --> 00:33:47,510
Seminary too And just by being a professor

674
00:33:47,510 --> 00:33:50,998
there there's a lot of fallout when

675
00:33:50,998 --> 00:33:53,286
something as big as a president being

676
00:33:53,286 --> 00:33:55,974
asked to step down happens And so you're

677
00:33:55,974 --> 00:33:58,506
in a space where it's happening in real

678
00:33:58,506 --> 00:34:00,874
time.At your seminary you've walked

679
00:34:00,874 --> 00:34:02,378
through multiple situations and churches

680
00:34:02,378 --> 00:34:06,586
with Willow Creek and the you've had more

681
00:34:06,586 --> 00:34:10,986
than one round with this So for people who

682
00:34:10,986 --> 00:34:13,280
are listening what do you tell someone who

683
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,166
is either experiencing spiritual abuse or

684
00:34:15,166 --> 00:34:17,134
has someone they know that is experiencing

685
00:34:17,134 --> 00:34:19,886
it What is some of the first piece of

686
00:34:19,886 --> 00:34:25,098
advice you would give someone as they're

687
00:34:25,098 --> 00:34:28,066
just realizing that That's a lot.I learned

688
00:34:28,066 --> 00:34:29,666
something from Diane Langberg and I don't

689
00:34:29,666 --> 00:34:31,874
remember if it was in the conversation we

690
00:34:31,874 --> 00:34:34,402
had with her on the blog or on the podcast

691
00:34:34,402 --> 00:34:38,534
or just in a book but basically she said

692
00:34:38,534 --> 00:34:40,342
don't go public I'm going to summarize

693
00:34:40,342 --> 00:34:42,722
this Don't go public until you're

694
00:34:42,722 --> 00:34:45,238
influence a healthy enough place to take

695
00:34:45,238 --> 00:34:48,602
what happens when you do go public And

696
00:34:48,602 --> 00:34:52,214
when she said that I thought wow that is

697
00:34:52,214 --> 00:34:55,914
so true because Lori you've experienced

698
00:34:55,914 --> 00:34:57,500
this.I haven't experienced this really

699
00:34:57,500 --> 00:35:01,558
other a students don't like things that

700
00:35:01,558 --> 00:35:03,678
you say and people criticize you here and

701
00:35:03,678 --> 00:35:07,290
there on the Internet stuff I mean that's

702
00:35:07,290 --> 00:35:10,030
part of the game that I play But most

703
00:35:10,030 --> 00:35:13,026
people who call out spiritual abuse suffer

704
00:35:13,026 --> 00:35:16,114
more from the secondary trauma of people

705
00:35:16,114 --> 00:35:21,618
going after them a than they do from the

706
00:35:21,618 --> 00:35:26,100
initial trauma itself And this is

707
00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:28,886
something that Chris and I and Laura have

708
00:35:28,886 --> 00:35:32,120
advised people over and over and over

709
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,714
We're dealing right now with a young woman

710
00:35:35,714 --> 00:35:38,086
who has called out a a when she first

711
00:35:38,086 --> 00:35:41,126
wrote me I said well you need to

712
00:35:41,126 --> 00:35:42,810
understand what's going to happen when you

713
00:35:42,810 --> 00:35:45,770
go public with this is people are going to

714
00:35:45,770 --> 00:35:49,894
hate you You're going to lose your friends

715
00:35:49,894 --> 00:35:52,266
you could lose your job at the school

716
00:35:52,266 --> 00:35:54,986
where you are It's going to be difficult

717
00:35:54,986 --> 00:35:57,038
It's going to be very difficult So I would

718
00:35:57,038 --> 00:35:59,806
say first of all get yourself in a

719
00:35:59,806 --> 00:36:03,278
position of being healthy enough to

720
00:36:03,278 --> 00:36:05,682
realize that it's going to come at you in

721
00:36:05,682 --> 00:36:09,026
an even more ferocious way because you've

722
00:36:09,026 --> 00:36:12,226
gone public than because you originally

723
00:36:12,226 --> 00:36:14,930
went public.The second thing is surround

724
00:36:14,930 --> 00:36:16,374
yourself with friends who completely

725
00:36:16,374 --> 00:36:20,102
understand your story and who can be your

726
00:36:20,102 --> 00:36:23,046
advocates and guides as you go through

727
00:36:23,046 --> 00:36:24,758
these things because without that I don't

728
00:36:24,758 --> 00:36:26,310
think most people could survive the

729
00:36:26,310 --> 00:36:30,122
scrutiny and the intensity of the blowback

730
00:36:30,122 --> 00:36:35,098
And then this is something that I don't

731
00:36:35,098 --> 00:36:38,730
think all the traumatized people in the

732
00:36:38,730 --> 00:36:41,606
world would agree with But because I teach

733
00:36:41,606 --> 00:36:46,542
at a school I think I lean a little bit in

734
00:36:46,542 --> 00:36:48,382
this direction Follow the protocols or the

735
00:36:48,382 --> 00:36:50,046
guidelines of the school or your

736
00:36:50,046 --> 00:36:52,554
institution for let's say reporting abuse

737
00:36:52,554 --> 00:36:57,922
as much as possible The first thing to do

738
00:36:57,922 --> 00:37:02,722
is don't go to Twitter.People who go to

739
00:37:02,722 --> 00:37:05,878
Twitter first are going to jeopardize the

740
00:37:05,878 --> 00:37:08,486
situation more than they're actually going

741
00:37:08,486 --> 00:37:12,034
to help it But like if your school or your

742
00:37:12,034 --> 00:37:15,250
church has a whistleblower policy follow

743
00:37:15,250 --> 00:37:18,774
it Now most don't most don't want this

744
00:37:18,774 --> 00:37:22,022
because it creates a sense of independent

745
00:37:22,022 --> 00:37:25,638
judgment that the people in power don't

746
00:37:25,638 --> 00:37:30,206
want But there could be a human resources

747
00:37:30,206 --> 00:37:33,246
department that you could report to There

748
00:37:33,246 --> 00:37:40,206
could be some kind of committee that you

749
00:37:40,206 --> 00:37:43,426
could report to but the closer they are to

750
00:37:43,426 --> 00:37:45,346
the people who are the perpetrators or the

751
00:37:45,346 --> 00:37:49,540
ones that you're concerned about it really

752
00:37:49,540 --> 00:37:52,642
jeopardizes honesty and truthfulness.So I

753
00:37:52,642 --> 00:37:55,202
would say follow the pattern And then I

754
00:37:55,202 --> 00:37:57,426
would say fourth you're going to have to

755
00:37:57,426 --> 00:38:00,806
develop a powerful sense of patience and

756
00:38:00,806 --> 00:38:02,054
resilience because it's not going to

757
00:38:02,054 --> 00:38:05,266
happen overnight and it's going to be one

758
00:38:05,266 --> 00:38:07,866
frustrating decision a another It can go

759
00:38:07,866 --> 00:38:14,540
on for years for so people to deal with

760
00:38:14,540 --> 00:38:18,954
these situations and you could lose your

761
00:38:18,954 --> 00:38:21,226
job you could lose your friends you could

762
00:38:21,226 --> 00:38:23,454
lose your church your school your

763
00:38:23,454 --> 00:38:29,822
workplace but I would say just don't go

764
00:38:29,822 --> 00:38:32,526
giving it thinking that I'm going to go in

765
00:38:32,526 --> 00:38:35,214
I'm going to tell this deacon and this

766
00:38:35,214 --> 00:38:37,994
deacon and I or this elder and I are going

767
00:38:37,994 --> 00:38:40,514
to go and talk to pastor We're going to

768
00:38:40,514 --> 00:38:42,206
confront the pastor.He's going to repent

769
00:38:42,206 --> 00:38:43,218
and change Okay In the first year that

770
00:38:43,218 --> 00:38:44,786
Laura and I've wrote our book church

771
00:38:44,786 --> 00:38:46,066
Called Tove we heard for 1516 months

772
00:38:46,066 --> 00:38:48,594
between three and five stories a week Okay

773
00:38:48,594 --> 00:38:51,126
I know I don't remember a story where a

774
00:38:51,126 --> 00:38:53,154
person went in and confronted the pastor

775
00:38:53,154 --> 00:38:55,526
and the pastor repented and changed and

776
00:38:55,526 --> 00:38:56,806
for and apologized and made the situation

777
00:38:56,806 --> 00:38:59,154
right I don't remember that happening now

778
00:38:59,154 --> 00:39:02,074
I think there are some pastors who say the

779
00:39:02,074 --> 00:39:04,026
did but a megachurch bunch of baloney in

780
00:39:04,026 --> 00:39:07,082
most cases So you're just going to have to

781
00:39:07,082 --> 00:39:08,986
deal with setbacks blowbacks pushbacks and

782
00:39:08,986 --> 00:39:10,726
you're going to have to have patience and

783
00:39:10,726 --> 00:39:13,306
it's going to be harder than the original

784
00:39:13,306 --> 00:39:14,814
abuse was.Yeah for most people that's true

785
00:39:14,814 --> 00:39:17,278
in our story We obviously called it out We

786
00:39:17,278 --> 00:39:19,166
got fired for that It was retaliation one

787
00:39:19,166 --> 00:39:22,106
of the most illegal forms in California

788
00:39:22,106 --> 00:39:23,770
Even now.It's interesting because I work

789
00:39:23,770 --> 00:39:26,098
something tech and leadership a

790
00:39:26,098 --> 00:39:28,980
development for asked pretty large global

791
00:39:28,980 --> 00:39:31,966
tech company And so I'm a calls with

792
00:39:31,966 --> 00:39:34,046
people happening the UK about to travel

793
00:39:34,046 --> 00:39:36,614
there soon And we have locations in Taiwan

794
00:39:36,614 --> 00:39:39,398
and China It's very diverse and everything

795
00:39:39,398 --> 00:39:42,166
but we are very strong in our company on a

796
00:39:42,166 --> 00:39:45,878
no retaliation policy Even with our survey

797
00:39:45,878 --> 00:39:50,154
we did we don't even allow the people to

798
00:39:50,154 --> 00:39:53,226
see the comments that might retaliate

799
00:39:53,226 --> 00:39:55,226
against them because we want people to

800
00:39:55,226 --> 00:39:57,034
feel free to share any power dynamic that

801
00:39:57,034 --> 00:40:04,954
might be inappropriate.And we a to watch

802
00:40:04,954 --> 00:40:09,166
these trainings where you can't retaliate

803
00:40:09,166 --> 00:40:10,286
by demoting someone giving them less work

804
00:40:10,286 --> 00:40:12,234
And the most extreme version of that would

805
00:40:12,234 --> 00:40:14,306
be to fire someone for saying something

806
00:40:14,306 --> 00:40:20,770
And yet our church got away with it That

807
00:40:20,770 --> 00:40:23,650
church is still going The person who did

808
00:40:23,650 --> 00:40:25,686
that is now in a church.And the other

809
00:40:25,686 --> 00:40:28,040
abuser of these two guys is now leading

810
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,694
one of the largest evangelical churches in

811
00:40:30,694 --> 00:40:35,954
the US Here in California in Saddleback

812
00:40:35,954 --> 00:40:41,174
And it's interesting how retaliation just

813
00:40:41,174 --> 00:40:44,282
gets so glossed over And it's sad because

814
00:40:44,282 --> 00:40:46,986
as we're talking About the scripture and

815
00:40:46,986 --> 00:40:48,262
talking about how.Important words are it's

816
00:40:48,262 --> 00:40:49,882
so important to be good listeners and care

817
00:40:49,882 --> 00:40:54,494
for one Another in the church And I just

818
00:40:54,494 --> 00:41:03,202
want to say thank you for taking the time

819
00:41:03,202 --> 00:41:06,434
to dig deep into Greek words culture and

820
00:41:06,434 --> 00:41:10,386
help us exegeute this trauma little bit

821
00:41:10,386 --> 00:41:12,946
better by helping it sound like something

822
00:41:12,946 --> 00:41:15,766
less familiar in advised way that can help

823
00:41:15,766 --> 00:41:17,782
us really dig deeper I think so often

824
00:41:17,782 --> 00:41:23,640
people don't dig deep and that's why abuse

825
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,534
gets covered up That's why power dynamics

826
00:41:26,534 --> 00:41:28,598
stay because we.Just take things at face

827
00:41:28,598 --> 00:41:30,842
value And you're asking us to just go a

828
00:41:30,842 --> 00:41:32,666
little deeper even with the scriptures

829
00:41:32,666 --> 00:41:35,386
that we read So thank your for this work I

830
00:41:35,386 --> 00:41:39,498
know it must have taken many Hours to make

831
00:41:39,498 --> 00:41:41,454
and so we're so.Grateful for your work on

832
00:41:41,454 --> 00:41:45,280
this but It'S so difficult to go public

833
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,254
because there's just clouds of power

834
00:41:48,254 --> 00:41:51,454
against you all the time when you when you

835
00:41:51,454 --> 00:41:55,460
start doing it and it's you can study and

836
00:41:55,460 --> 00:41:59,074
you can figure out and you say you know

837
00:41:59,074 --> 00:42:03,666
that was abuse And they'll say no it was

838
00:42:03,666 --> 00:42:07,094
leadership And they have the power to be

839
00:42:07,094 --> 00:42:11,014
able to narrate the story And you as a

840
00:42:11,014 --> 00:42:14,774
victim whoever we're talking about doesn't

841
00:42:14,774 --> 00:42:16,790
have the power to narrate that

842
00:42:16,790 --> 00:42:20,186
story.Someone else gets to tell the story

843
00:42:20,186 --> 00:42:25,962
and they get to gloss over it and they use

844
00:42:25,962 --> 00:42:28,314
their words to victimize

845
00:42:28,314 --> 00:42:29,322
revictimize.Clearly for me the most

846
00:42:29,322 --> 00:42:31,920
demanding and difficult thing I done in my

847
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,958
entire life working in the church is to

848
00:42:34,958 --> 00:42:38,394
realize how difficult it is for lots of

849
00:42:38,394 --> 00:42:41,998
church leaders and pastors simply to admit

850
00:42:41,998 --> 00:42:45,760
the truth.So sad because the truth sets us

851
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,726
free Isn't that the whole thing Yeah

852
00:42:47,726 --> 00:42:50,926
exactly Well thank you so much for your

853
00:42:50,926 --> 00:42:54,254
work I do want to ask you to.Hang out than

854
00:42:54,254 --> 00:42:55,942
little bit longer for our patreon

855
00:42:55,942 --> 00:42:58,338
supporters to do one more question with

856
00:42:58,338 --> 00:43:01,414
them but we'll go ahead And finish out

857
00:43:01,414 --> 00:43:04,838
this interview If you're not in our

858
00:43:04,838 --> 00:43:07,946
patreon community a join But I just want

859
00:43:07,946 --> 00:43:10,346
to thank you for joining us today Scott

860
00:43:10,346 --> 00:43:13,306
You are just not only department scholar

861
00:43:13,306 --> 00:43:18,554
that we can trust because we know that

862
00:43:18,554 --> 00:43:20,766
you're going to dig into the Greek words

863
00:43:20,766 --> 00:43:23,134
and help us understand them.But we also

864
00:43:23,134 --> 00:43:24,958
know you as a person in the survivor

865
00:43:24,958 --> 00:43:28,522
community as somebody who does actually

866
00:43:28,522 --> 00:43:32,014
pastoral care very well and caring for us

867
00:43:32,014 --> 00:43:35,138
I just say thank you on behalf of all of

868
00:43:35,138 --> 00:43:38,254
us in the survivor community a for me and

869
00:43:38,254 --> 00:43:42,130
my family And all that you've done for us

870
00:43:42,130 --> 00:43:47,074
To pray for us and engage with Us

871
00:43:47,074 --> 00:43:51,670
throughout the past couple of years.Well

872
00:43:51,670 --> 00:43:54,502
thank you Great to see you again Great to

873
00:43:54,502 --> 00:43:59,146
see you too Scott Take care Bye undefined

874
00:43:59,146 --> 00:44:00,170
undefined undefined undefined undefined

875
00:44:00,170 --> 00:44:00,986
undefined undefined undefined undefined

876
00:44:00,986 --> 00:44:02,490
undefined undefined undefined undefined

877
00:44:02,490 --> 00:44:05,706
undefined undefined undefined undefined

878
00:44:05,706 --> 00:44:07,834
undefined undefined undefined undefined

879
00:44:07,834 --> 00:44:08,970
undefined undefined undefined undefined

880
00:44:08,970 --> 00:44:09,626
undefined undefined undefined undefined

881
00:44:09,626 --> 00:44:10,874
undefined undefined undefined undefined

882
00:44:10,874 --> 00:44:12,154
undefined undefined undefined undefined

883
00:44:12,154 --> 00:44:13,162
undefined undefined undefined undefined

884
00:44:13,162 --> 00:44:14,078
undefined undefined undefined undefined

885
00:44:14,078 --> 00:44:14,478
undefined undefined undefined undefined

886
00:44:14,478 --> 00:44:15,086
undefined undefined undefined undefined

887
00:44:15,086 --> 00:44:16,286
undefined undefined undefined undefined

888
00:44:16,286 --> 00:44:17,418
undefined undefined undefined undefined

889
00:44:17,418 --> 00:44:18,254
undefined undefined undefined undefined

890
00:44:18,254 --> 00:44:21,326
undefined undefined undefined undefined

891
00:44:21,326 --> 00:44:22,378
undefined undefined undefined undefined

892
00:44:22,378 --> 00:44:23,154
undefined undefined undefined undefined

893
00:44:23,154 --> 00:44:25,090
undefined undefined undefined undefined

894
00:44:25,090 --> 00:44:28,414
undefined undefined undefined undefined

895
00:44:28,414 --> 00:44:29,586
undefined undefined undefined undefined

896
00:44:29,586 --> 00:44:30,946
undefined undefined undefined undefined

897
00:44:30,946 --> 00:44:34,946
undefined undefined undefined undefined

898
00:44:34,946 --> 00:44:36,726
undefined undefined undefined undefined

899
00:44:36,726 --> 00:44:37,974
undefined undefined undefined undefined

900
00:44:37,974 --> 00:44:38,918
undefined undefined undefined undefined

901
00:44:38,918 --> 00:44:39,954
undefined undefined undefined undefined

902
00:44:39,954 --> 00:44:41,334
undefined undefined undefined undefined

903
00:44:41,334 --> 00:44:43,334
undefined undefined undefined undefined

904
00:44:43,334 --> 00:44:45,080
undefined undefined undefined undefined

905
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:46,902
undefined undefined undefined undefined

906
00:44:46,902 --> 00:44:48,250
undefined undefined undefined undefined

907
00:44:48,250 --> 00:44:49,254
undefined undefined undefined undefined

908
00:44:49,254 --> 00:44:50,346
undefined undefined undefined undefined

909
00:44:50,346 --> 00:44:51,318
undefined undefined undefined undefined

910
00:44:51,318 --> 00:44:52,794
undefined undefined undefined undefined

911
00:44:52,794 --> 00:44:55,434
undefined undefined undefined undefined

912
00:44:55,434 --> 00:44:56,362
undefined undefined undefined undefined

913
00:44:56,362 --> 00:44:58,582
undefined undefined undefined undefined

914
00:44:58,582 --> 00:45:01,758
undefined undefined undefined undefined

915
00:45:01,758 --> 00:45:02,206
undefined undefined undefined undefined

916
00:45:02,206 --> 00:45:03,726
undefined undefined undefined undefined

917
00:45:03,726 --> 00:45:07,262
undefined undefined undefined undefined

918
00:45:07,262 --> 00:45:10,560
undefined undefined undefined undefined

919
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,602
undefined undefined undefined undefined

920
00:45:13,602 --> 00:45:16,354
undefined undefined undefined undefined

921
00:45:16,354 --> 00:45:18,034
undefined undefined undefined undefined

922
00:45:18,034 --> 00:45:18,834
undefined undefined undefined undefined

923
00:45:18,834 --> 00:45:19,938
undefined undefined undefined undefined

924
00:45:19,938 --> 00:45:22,418
undefined undefined undefined undefined

925
00:45:22,418 --> 00:45:23,598
undefined undefined undefined undefined

926
00:45:23,598 --> 00:45:25,474
undefined undefined undefined undefined

927
00:45:25,474 --> 00:45:26,694
undefined undefined undefined undefined

928
00:45:26,694 --> 00:45:27,686
undefined undefined undefined undefined

929
00:45:27,686 --> 00:45:28,982
undefined undefined undefined undefined

930
00:45:28,982 --> 00:45:30,770
undefined undefined undefined undefined

931
00:45:30,770 --> 00:45:33,862
undefined undefined undefined undefined

932
00:45:33,862 --> 00:45:35,414
undefined undefined undefined undefined

933
00:45:35,414 --> 00:45:36,290
undefined undefined undefined undefined

934
00:45:36,290 --> 00:45:37,222
undefined undefined undefined undefined

935
00:45:37,222 --> 00:45:38,310
undefined undefined undefined undefined

936
00:45:38,310 --> 00:45:39,650
undefined undefined undefined undefined

937
00:45:39,650 --> 00:45:40,726
undefined undefined undefined undefined

938
00:45:40,726 --> 00:45:41,994
undefined undefined undefined undefined

939
00:45:41,994 --> 00:45:43,146
undefined undefined undefined undefined

940
00:45:43,146 --> 00:45:44,666
undefined undefined undefined undefined

941
00:45:44,666 --> 00:45:46,634
undefined undefined undefined undefined

942
00:45:46,634 --> 00:45:47,754
undefined undefined undefined undefined

943
00:45:47,754 --> 00:45:48,954
undefined undefined undefined undefined

944
00:45:48,954 --> 00:45:50,426
undefined undefined undefined undefined

945
00:45:50,426 --> 00:45:51,306
undefined undefined undefined undefined

946
00:45:51,306 --> 00:45:52,446
undefined undefined undefined undefined

947
00:45:52,446 --> 00:45:53,166
undefined undefined undefined undefined

948
00:45:53,166 --> 00:45:53,886
undefined undefined undefined undefined

949
00:45:53,886 --> 00:45:55,786
undefined undefined undefined undefined

950
00:45:55,786 --> 00:45:57,226
undefined undefined undefined undefined

951
00:45:57,226 --> 00:45:58,606
undefined undefined undefined undefined

952
00:45:58,606 --> 00:45:59,822
undefined undefined undefined undefined

953
00:45:59,822 --> 00:46:01,758
undefined undefined undefined undefined

954
00:46:01,758 --> 00:46:03,294
undefined undefined undefined undefined

955
00:46:03,294 --> 00:46:04,766
undefined undefined undefined undefined

956
00:46:04,766 --> 00:46:05,758
undefined undefined undefined undefined

957
00:46:05,758 --> 00:46:06,386
undefined undefined undefined undefined

958
00:46:06,386 --> 00:46:08,802
undefined undefined undefined undefined

959
00:46:08,802 --> 00:46:10,626
undefined undefined undefined undefined

960
00:46:10,626 --> 00:46:11,458
undefined undefined undefined undefined

961
00:46:11,458 --> 00:46:12,226
undefined undefined undefined undefined

962
00:46:12,226 --> 00:46:13,074
undefined undefined undefined undefined

963
00:46:13,074 --> 00:46:13,874
undefined undefined undefined undefined

964
00:46:13,874 --> 00:46:14,990
undefined undefined undefined undefined

965
00:46:14,990 --> 00:46:16,146
undefined undefined undefined undefined

966
00:46:16,146 --> 00:46:17,030
undefined undefined undefined undefined

967
00:46:17,030 --> 00:46:17,926
undefined undefined undefined undefined

968
00:46:17,926 --> 00:46:19,986
undefined undefined undefined undefined

969
00:46:19,986 --> 00:46:20,822
undefined undefined undefined undefined

970
00:46:20,822 --> 00:46:21,766
undefined undefined undefined undefined

971
00:46:21,766 --> 00:46:23,798
undefined undefined undefined undefined

972
00:46:23,798 --> 00:46:26,854
undefined undefined undefined undefined

973
00:46:26,854 --> 00:46:28,566
undefined undefined undefined undefined

974
00:46:28,566 --> 00:46:29,446
undefined undefined undefined undefined

975
00:46:29,446 --> 00:46:30,266
undefined undefined undefined undefined

976
00:46:30,266 --> 00:46:31,434
undefined undefined undefined undefined

977
00:46:31,434 --> 00:46:33,306
undefined undefined undefined undefined

978
00:46:33,306 --> 00:46:34,906
undefined undefined undefined undefined

979
00:46:34,906 --> 00:46:36,234
undefined undefined undefined undefined

980
00:46:36,234 --> 00:46:37,450
undefined undefined undefined undefined

981
00:46:37,450 --> 00:46:39,194
undefined undefined undefined undefined

982
00:46:39,194 --> 00:46:39,898
undefined undefined undefined undefined

983
00:46:39,898 --> 00:46:40,734
undefined undefined undefined undefined

984
00:46:40,734 --> 00:46:41,854
undefined undefined undefined undefined

985
00:46:41,854 --> 00:46:44,938
undefined undefined undefined undefined

986
00:46:44,938 --> 00:46:46,974
undefined undefined undefined undefined

987
00:46:46,974 --> 00:46:48,158
undefined undefined undefined undefined

988
00:46:48,158 --> 00:46:49,326
undefined undefined undefined undefined

989
00:46:49,326 --> 00:46:50,990
undefined undefined undefined undefined

990
00:46:50,990 --> 00:46:53,006
undefined undefined undefined undefined

991
00:46:53,006 --> 00:46:53,934
undefined undefined undefined undefined

992
00:46:53,934 --> 00:46:55,374
undefined undefined undefined undefined

993
00:46:55,374 --> 00:46:56,450
undefined undefined undefined undefined

994
00:46:56,450 --> 00:46:57,794
undefined undefined undefined undefined

995
00:46:57,794 --> 00:46:58,674
undefined undefined undefined undefined

996
00:46:58,674 --> 00:46:59,746
undefined undefined undefined undefined

997
00:46:59,746 --> 00:47:01,214
undefined undefined undefined undefined

998
00:47:01,214 --> 00:47:02,834
undefined undefined undefined undefined

999
00:47:02,834 --> 00:47:03,762
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1000
00:47:03,762 --> 00:47:04,882
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1001
00:47:04,882 --> 00:47:05,714
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1002
00:47:05,714 --> 00:47:06,626
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1003
00:47:06,626 --> 00:47:07,618
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1004
00:47:07,618 --> 00:47:09,094
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1005
00:47:09,094 --> 00:47:09,862
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1006
00:47:09,862 --> 00:47:10,566
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1007
00:47:10,566 --> 00:47:12,566
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1008
00:47:12,566 --> 00:47:14,006
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1009
00:47:14,006 --> 00:47:15,286
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1010
00:47:15,286 --> 00:47:16,118
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1011
00:47:16,118 --> 00:47:19,800
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1012
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,700
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1013
00:47:22,700 --> 00:47:25,260
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1014
00:47:25,260 --> 00:47:27,274
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1015
00:47:27,274 --> 00:47:28,186
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1016
00:47:28,186 --> 00:47:29,114
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1017
00:47:29,114 --> 00:47:31,194
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1018
00:47:31,194 --> 00:47:32,586
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1019
00:47:32,586 --> 00:47:33,386
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1020
00:47:33,386 --> 00:47:34,006
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1021
00:47:34,006 --> 00:47:35,006
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1022
00:47:35,006 --> 00:47:35,886
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1023
00:47:35,886 --> 00:47:38,574
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1024
00:47:38,574 --> 00:47:40,366
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1025
00:47:40,366 --> 00:47:41,498
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1026
00:47:41,498 --> 00:47:44,562
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1027
00:47:44,562 --> 00:47:47,630
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1028
00:47:47,630 --> 00:47:51,054
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1029
00:47:51,054 --> 00:47:51,874
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1030
00:47:51,874 --> 00:47:53,442
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1031
00:47:53,442 --> 00:47:54,354
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1032
00:47:54,354 --> 00:47:56,166
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1033
00:47:56,166 --> 00:47:57,334
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1034
00:47:57,334 --> 00:47:58,374
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1035
00:47:58,374 --> 00:48:01,458
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1036
00:48:01,458 --> 00:48:10,330
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1037
00:48:10,330 --> 00:48:12,842
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1038
00:48:12,842 --> 00:48:14,314
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1039
00:48:14,314 --> 00:48:15,674
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1040
00:48:15,674 --> 00:48:17,030
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1041
00:48:17,030 --> 00:48:19,642
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1042
00:48:19,642 --> 00:48:21,102
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1043
00:48:21,102 --> 00:48:22,186
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1044
00:48:22,186 --> 00:48:24,814
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1045
00:48:24,814 --> 00:48:28,894
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1046
00:48:28,894 --> 00:48:30,106
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1047
00:48:30,106 --> 00:48:31,018
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1048
00:48:31,018 --> 00:48:31,710
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1049
00:48:31,710 --> 00:48:35,454
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1050
00:48:35,454 --> 00:48:36,206
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1051
00:48:36,206 --> 00:48:37,646
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1052
00:48:37,646 --> 00:48:38,386
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1053
00:48:38,386 --> 00:48:39,298
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1054
00:48:39,298 --> 00:48:40,866
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1055
00:48:40,866 --> 00:48:42,098
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1056
00:48:42,098 --> 00:48:42,754
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1057
00:48:42,754 --> 00:48:43,438
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1058
00:48:43,438 --> 00:48:44,402
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1059
00:48:44,402 --> 00:48:45,378
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1060
00:48:45,378 --> 00:48:45,906
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1061
00:48:45,906 --> 00:48:47,810
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1062
00:48:47,810 --> 00:48:49,238
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1063
00:48:49,238 --> 00:48:50,182
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1064
00:48:50,182 --> 00:48:52,162
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1065
00:48:52,162 --> 00:48:53,814
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1066
00:48:53,814 --> 00:48:55,126
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1067
00:48:55,126 --> 00:48:55,926
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1068
00:48:55,926 --> 00:48:56,486
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1069
00:48:56,486 --> 00:48:57,094
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1070
00:48:57,094 --> 00:48:58,278
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1071
00:48:58,278 --> 00:48:59,126
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1072
00:48:59,126 --> 00:49:00,374
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1073
00:49:00,374 --> 00:49:01,210
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1074
00:49:01,210 --> 00:49:02,426
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1075
00:49:02,426 --> 00:49:04,202
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1076
00:49:04,202 --> 00:49:06,602
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1077
00:49:06,602 --> 00:49:07,706
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1078
00:49:07,706 --> 00:49:08,618
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1079
00:49:08,618 --> 00:49:09,478
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1080
00:49:09,478 --> 00:49:09,946
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1081
00:49:09,946 --> 00:49:10,890
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1082
00:49:10,890 --> 00:49:11,946
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1083
00:49:11,946 --> 00:49:12,746
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1084
00:49:12,746 --> 00:49:13,786
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1085
00:49:13,786 --> 00:49:14,606
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1086
00:49:14,606 --> 00:49:15,886
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1087
00:49:15,886 --> 00:49:16,734
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1088
00:49:16,734 --> 00:49:18,094
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1089
00:49:18,094 --> 00:49:19,086
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1090
00:49:19,086 --> 00:49:21,054
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1091
00:49:21,054 --> 00:49:21,694
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1092
00:49:21,694 --> 00:49:23,730
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1093
00:49:23,730 --> 00:49:27,038
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1094
00:49:27,038 --> 00:49:28,066
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1095
00:49:28,066 --> 00:49:29,378
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1096
00:49:29,378 --> 00:49:31,874
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1097
00:49:31,874 --> 00:49:33,166
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1098
00:49:33,166 --> 00:49:34,466
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1099
00:49:34,466 --> 00:49:35,986
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1100
00:49:35,986 --> 00:49:37,846
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1101
00:49:37,846 --> 00:49:39,526
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1102
00:49:39,526 --> 00:49:40,934
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1103
00:49:40,934 --> 00:49:44,614
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1104
00:49:44,614 --> 00:49:45,526
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1105
00:49:45,526 --> 00:49:46,626
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1106
00:49:46,626 --> 00:49:47,946
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1107
00:49:47,946 --> 00:49:48,906
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1108
00:49:48,906 --> 00:49:52,074
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1109
00:49:52,074 --> 00:49:53,914
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1110
00:49:53,914 --> 00:49:55,882
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1111
00:49:55,882 --> 00:49:57,114
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1112
00:49:57,114 --> 00:49:57,978
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1113
00:49:57,978 --> 00:50:00,266
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1114
00:50:00,266 --> 00:50:01,546
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1115
00:50:01,546 --> 00:50:02,310
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1116
00:50:02,310 --> 00:50:03,022
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1117
00:50:03,022 --> 00:50:04,494
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1118
00:50:04,494 --> 00:50:07,386
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1119
00:50:07,386 --> 00:50:08,286
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1120
00:50:08,286 --> 00:50:09,934
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1121
00:50:09,934 --> 00:50:11,006
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1122
00:50:11,006 --> 00:50:11,678
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1123
00:50:11,678 --> 00:50:13,934
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1124
00:50:13,934 --> 00:50:15,038
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1125
00:50:15,038 --> 00:50:15,906
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1126
00:50:15,906 --> 00:50:17,234
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1127
00:50:17,234 --> 00:50:18,498
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1128
00:50:18,498 --> 00:50:19,774
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1129
00:50:19,774 --> 00:50:20,930
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1130
00:50:20,930 --> 00:50:22,866
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1131
00:50:22,866 --> 00:50:23,666
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1132
00:50:23,666 --> 00:50:25,282
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1133
00:50:25,282 --> 00:50:26,754
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1134
00:50:26,754 --> 00:50:27,574
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1135
00:50:27,574 --> 00:50:29,000
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1136
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,494
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1137
00:50:31,494 --> 00:50:32,806
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1138
00:50:32,806 --> 00:50:33,666
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1139
00:50:33,666 --> 00:50:34,822
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1140
00:50:34,822 --> 00:50:36,534
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1141
00:50:36,534 --> 00:50:37,706
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1142
00:50:37,706 --> 00:50:38,758
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1143
00:50:38,758 --> 00:50:40,138
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1144
00:50:40,138 --> 00:50:41,242
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1145
00:50:41,242 --> 00:50:43,722
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1146
00:50:43,722 --> 00:50:45,606
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1147
00:50:45,606 --> 00:50:48,170
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1148
00:50:48,170 --> 00:50:49,722
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1149
00:50:49,722 --> 00:50:51,098
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1150
00:50:51,098 --> 00:50:53,274
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1151
00:50:53,274 --> 00:50:55,646
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1152
00:50:55,646 --> 00:50:56,846
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1153
00:50:56,846 --> 00:50:58,414
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1154
00:50:58,414 --> 00:50:59,354
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1155
00:50:59,354 --> 00:51:01,514
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1156
00:51:01,514 --> 00:51:03,554
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1157
00:51:03,554 --> 00:51:04,914
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1158
00:51:04,914 --> 00:51:06,482
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1159
00:51:06,482 --> 00:51:07,906
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1160
00:51:07,906 --> 00:51:10,434
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1161
00:51:10,434 --> 00:51:12,606
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1162
00:51:12,606 --> 00:51:14,260
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1163
00:51:14,260 --> 00:51:16,270
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1164
00:51:16,270 --> 00:51:17,666
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1165
00:51:17,666 --> 00:51:19,558
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1166
00:51:19,558 --> 00:51:20,966
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1167
00:51:20,966 --> 00:51:22,022
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1168
00:51:22,022 --> 00:51:24,360
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1169
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,070
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1170
00:51:26,070 --> 00:51:27,046
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1171
00:51:27,046 --> 00:51:29,066
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1172
00:51:29,066 --> 00:51:29,962
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1173
00:51:29,962 --> 00:51:32,186
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1174
00:51:32,186 --> 00:51:33,254
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1175
00:51:33,254 --> 00:51:33,946
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1176
00:51:33,946 --> 00:51:35,530
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1177
00:51:35,530 --> 00:51:37,866
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1178
00:51:37,866 --> 00:51:38,854
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1179
00:51:38,854 --> 00:51:40,826
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1180
00:51:40,826 --> 00:51:42,382
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1181
00:51:42,382 --> 00:51:43,742
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1182
00:51:43,742 --> 00:51:44,974
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1183
00:51:44,974 --> 00:51:47,118
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1184
00:51:47,118 --> 00:51:48,174
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1185
00:51:48,174 --> 00:51:49,822
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1186
00:51:49,822 --> 00:51:53,342
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1187
00:51:53,342 --> 00:51:54,820
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1188
00:51:54,820 --> 00:51:56,466
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1189
00:51:56,466 --> 00:51:58,130
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1190
00:51:58,130 --> 00:51:59,426
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1191
00:51:59,426 --> 00:52:00,898
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1192
00:52:00,898 --> 00:52:03,586
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1193
00:52:03,586 --> 00:52:04,146
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1194
00:52:04,146 --> 00:52:06,226
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1195
00:52:06,226 --> 00:52:07,506
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1196
00:52:07,506 --> 00:52:08,886
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1197
00:52:08,886 --> 00:52:10,262
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1198
00:52:10,262 --> 00:52:11,426
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1199
00:52:11,426 --> 00:52:12,454
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1200
00:52:12,454 --> 00:52:13,862
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1201
00:52:13,862 --> 00:52:14,854
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1202
00:52:14,854 --> 00:52:16,294
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1203
00:52:16,294 --> 00:52:18,326
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1204
00:52:18,326 --> 00:52:20,314
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1205
00:52:20,314 --> 00:52:23,398
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1206
00:52:23,398 --> 00:52:24,794
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1207
00:52:24,794 --> 00:52:26,858
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1208
00:52:26,858 --> 00:52:28,314
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1209
00:52:28,314 --> 00:52:30,022
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1210
00:52:30,022 --> 00:52:30,926
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1211
00:52:30,926 --> 00:52:32,846
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1212
00:52:32,846 --> 00:52:34,302
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1213
00:52:34,302 --> 00:52:36,734
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1214
00:52:36,734 --> 00:52:37,998
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1215
00:52:37,998 --> 00:52:40,414
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1216
00:52:40,414 --> 00:52:41,886
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1217
00:52:41,886 --> 00:52:43,306
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1218
00:52:43,306 --> 00:52:44,574
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1219
00:52:44,574 --> 00:52:45,910
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1220
00:52:45,910 --> 00:52:47,746
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1221
00:52:47,746 --> 00:52:48,866
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1222
00:52:48,866 --> 00:52:49,986
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1223
00:52:49,986 --> 00:52:51,140
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1224
00:52:51,140 --> 00:52:52,846
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1225
00:52:52,846 --> 00:52:53,886
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1226
00:52:53,886 --> 00:52:54,578
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1227
00:52:54,578 --> 00:52:55,534
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1228
00:52:55,534 --> 00:52:57,890
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1229
00:52:57,890 --> 00:52:59,106
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1230
00:52:59,106 --> 00:53:00,434
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1231
00:53:00,434 --> 00:53:01,910
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1232
00:53:01,910 --> 00:53:03,798
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1233
00:53:03,798 --> 00:53:05,174
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1234
00:53:05,174 --> 00:53:06,038
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1235
00:53:06,038 --> 00:53:06,742
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1236
00:53:06,742 --> 00:53:07,718
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1237
00:53:07,718 --> 00:53:10,118
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1238
00:53:10,118 --> 00:53:10,794
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1239
00:53:10,794 --> 00:53:11,798
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1240
00:53:11,798 --> 00:53:12,506
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1241
00:53:12,506 --> 00:53:13,546
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1242
00:53:13,546 --> 00:53:16,362
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1243
00:53:16,362 --> 00:53:17,354
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1244
00:53:17,354 --> 00:53:17,994
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1245
00:53:17,994 --> 00:53:21,354
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1246
00:53:21,354 --> 00:53:22,478
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1247
00:53:22,478 --> 00:53:25,150
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1248
00:53:25,150 --> 00:53:27,758
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1249
00:53:27,758 --> 00:53:28,766
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1250
00:53:28,766 --> 00:53:29,966
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1251
00:53:29,966 --> 00:53:31,086
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1252
00:53:31,086 --> 00:53:32,778
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1253
00:53:32,778 --> 00:53:33,218
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1254
00:53:33,218 --> 00:53:33,778
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1255
00:53:33,778 --> 00:53:34,978
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1256
00:53:34,978 --> 00:53:37,938
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1257
00:53:37,938 --> 00:53:39,454
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1258
00:53:39,454 --> 00:53:40,434
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1259
00:53:40,434 --> 00:53:42,882
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1260
00:53:42,882 --> 00:53:46,582
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1261
00:53:46,582 --> 00:53:48,326
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1262
00:53:48,326 --> 00:53:49,862
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1263
00:53:49,862 --> 00:53:50,918
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1264
00:53:50,918 --> 00:53:53,078
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1265
00:53:53,078 --> 00:53:54,006
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1266
00:53:54,006 --> 00:53:55,634
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1267
00:53:55,634 --> 00:53:57,382
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1268
00:53:57,382 --> 00:53:58,454
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1269
00:53:58,454 --> 00:53:59,546
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1270
00:53:59,546 --> 00:54:00,630
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1271
00:54:00,630 --> 00:54:02,614
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1272
00:54:02,614 --> 00:54:03,594
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1273
00:54:03,594 --> 00:54:05,302
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1274
00:54:05,302 --> 00:54:06,666
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1275
00:54:06,666 --> 00:54:08,934
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1276
00:54:08,934 --> 00:54:09,894
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1277
00:54:09,894 --> 00:54:11,226
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1278
00:54:11,226 --> 00:54:13,520
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1279
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:17,466
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1280
00:54:17,466 --> 00:54:20,698
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1281
00:54:20,698 --> 00:54:21,662
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1282
00:54:21,662 --> 00:54:23,870
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1283
00:54:23,870 --> 00:54:25,362
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1284
00:54:25,362 --> 00:54:26,354
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1285
00:54:26,354 --> 00:54:28,002
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1286
00:54:28,002 --> 00:54:29,154
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1287
00:54:29,154 --> 00:54:30,580
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1288
00:54:30,580 --> 00:54:33,294
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1289
00:54:33,294 --> 00:54:34,066
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1290
00:54:34,066 --> 00:54:35,346
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1291
00:54:35,346 --> 00:54:36,034
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1292
00:54:36,034 --> 00:54:37,650
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1293
00:54:37,650 --> 00:54:39,250
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1294
00:54:39,250 --> 00:54:40,486
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1295
00:54:40,486 --> 00:54:41,762
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1296
00:54:41,762 --> 00:54:42,518
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1297
00:54:42,518 --> 00:54:43,574
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1298
00:54:43,574 --> 00:54:44,870
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1299
00:54:44,870 --> 00:54:45,654
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1300
00:54:45,654 --> 00:54:46,406
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1301
00:54:46,406 --> 00:54:47,462
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1302
00:54:47,462 --> 00:54:48,454
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1303
00:54:48,454 --> 00:54:49,254
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1304
00:54:49,254 --> 00:54:50,374
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1305
00:54:50,374 --> 00:54:51,430
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1306
00:54:51,430 --> 00:54:52,614
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1307
00:54:52,614 --> 00:54:54,426
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1308
00:54:54,426 --> 00:54:56,486
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1309
00:54:56,486 --> 00:54:57,594
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1310
00:54:57,594 --> 00:54:58,746
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1311
00:54:58,746 --> 00:54:59,306
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1312
00:54:59,306 --> 00:55:00,346
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1313
00:55:00,346 --> 00:55:02,154
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1314
00:55:02,154 --> 00:55:04,094
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1315
00:55:04,094 --> 00:55:05,022
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1316
00:55:05,022 --> 00:55:06,046
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1317
00:55:06,046 --> 00:55:07,754
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1318
00:55:07,754 --> 00:55:08,826
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1319
00:55:08,826 --> 00:55:10,906
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1320
00:55:10,906 --> 00:55:11,854
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1321
00:55:11,854 --> 00:55:12,894
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1322
00:55:12,894 --> 00:55:14,334
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1323
00:55:14,334 --> 00:55:15,902
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1324
00:55:15,902 --> 00:55:17,538
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1325
00:55:17,538 --> 00:55:18,498
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1326
00:55:18,498 --> 00:55:19,186
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1327
00:55:19,186 --> 00:55:21,346
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1328
00:55:21,346 --> 00:55:22,226
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1329
00:55:22,226 --> 00:55:23,538
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1330
00:55:23,538 --> 00:55:24,546
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1331
00:55:24,546 --> 00:55:25,266
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1332
00:55:25,266 --> 00:55:26,446
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1333
00:55:26,446 --> 00:55:27,394
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1334
00:55:27,394 --> 00:55:28,546
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1335
00:55:28,546 --> 00:55:29,510
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1336
00:55:29,510 --> 00:55:31,206
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1337
00:55:31,206 --> 00:55:32,374
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1338
00:55:32,374 --> 00:55:33,494
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1339
00:55:33,494 --> 00:55:34,630
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1340
00:55:34,630 --> 00:55:35,414
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1341
00:55:35,414 --> 00:55:36,054
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1342
00:55:36,054 --> 00:55:37,062
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1343
00:55:37,062 --> 00:55:39,494
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1344
00:55:39,494 --> 00:55:40,326
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1345
00:55:40,326 --> 00:55:41,746
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1346
00:55:41,746 --> 00:55:42,666
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1347
00:55:42,666 --> 00:55:43,994
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1348
00:55:43,994 --> 00:55:45,206
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1349
00:55:45,206 --> 00:55:46,266
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1350
00:55:46,266 --> 00:55:47,658
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1351
00:55:47,658 --> 00:55:48,266
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1352
00:55:48,266 --> 00:55:49,114
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1353
00:55:49,114 --> 00:55:49,946
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1354
00:55:49,946 --> 00:55:50,586
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1355
00:55:50,586 --> 00:55:51,610
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1356
00:55:51,610 --> 00:55:52,746
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1357
00:55:52,746 --> 00:55:53,830
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1358
00:55:53,830 --> 00:55:54,922
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1359
00:55:54,922 --> 00:55:55,818
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1360
00:55:55,818 --> 00:55:56,798
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1361
00:55:56,798 --> 00:55:57,566
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1362
00:55:57,566 --> 00:55:58,814
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1363
00:55:58,814 --> 00:55:59,534
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1364
00:55:59,534 --> 00:56:00,494
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1365
00:56:00,494 --> 00:56:01,246
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1366
00:56:01,246 --> 00:56:02,814
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1367
00:56:02,814 --> 00:56:03,758
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1368
00:56:03,758 --> 00:56:04,734
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1369
00:56:04,734 --> 00:56:06,298
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1370
00:56:06,298 --> 00:56:07,246
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1371
00:56:07,246 --> 00:56:08,538
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1372
00:56:08,538 --> 00:56:09,966
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1373
00:56:09,966 --> 00:56:11,006
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1374
00:56:11,006 --> 00:56:12,702
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1375
00:56:12,702 --> 00:56:14,458
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1376
00:56:14,458 --> 00:56:15,446
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1377
00:56:15,446 --> 00:56:16,214
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1378
00:56:16,214 --> 00:56:18,086
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1379
00:56:18,086 --> 00:56:19,910
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1380
00:56:19,910 --> 00:56:21,554
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1381
00:56:21,554 --> 00:56:22,486
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1382
00:56:22,486 --> 00:56:23,318
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1383
00:56:23,318 --> 00:56:24,006
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1384
00:56:24,006 --> 00:56:25,158
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1385
00:56:25,158 --> 00:56:26,598
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1386
00:56:26,598 --> 00:56:27,862
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1387
00:56:27,862 --> 00:56:28,854
undefined undefined undefined undefined

New to the podcast?

Here are some great episodes to start with.

Sept. 18, 2024

Dr. Jemar Tisby on The Spirit of Justice: Stories of Resilience and R…

Are you ready to uncover the unexpected connection between racial justice and Christianity in US history? Get ready to be inspired and engaged as we reveal the surprising insights from this powerful conversation. Stay tuned to discover how this unexpected …

Episode page

Sept. 11, 2024

Dr. Chuck DeGroat on Healing What's WIthin: Finding Wholeness After A…

If you're feeling the weight of past trauma and struggling to heal, then you are not alone! The journey to healing from abuse and trauma is often filled with challenges, and finding the right tools to navigate this journey can …

Episode page

Aug. 28, 2024

When Workplace Adversity Becomes Work Trauma: A Princeton Study with …

Does this sound familiar? You've been told to work harder, take on more tasks, and just push through those workplace challenges, but the pain of feeling isolated, overwhelmed, and undervalued still lingers. It's time for a different approach to handle …

Episode page

Aug. 7, 2024

From Political Insights to Personal Obstacles: An Immigrant's Journey…

An Immigrant's Journey of Purpose with Dr. Esther Zeledón

Episode page

July 24, 2024

Navigating Politics, Religion, and Justice: A Lawyer's Perspective wi…

A Lawyer's Perspective with Robert Callahan

Episode page

July 17, 2024

Lisa Sharon Harper on The Struggle for Liberation: From Slave Ships t…

From Slave Ships to Freedom Roads

Episode page

June 19, 2024

Adoptee Centered Approaches: Walking with Those Impacted by Adoption …

Are you ready for the unexpected? Dive into the world of adoptee-centered approaches with Cameron Lee Small, a licensed clinical counselor and transracial adoptee. Get ready to be moved as we unravel the layers of grief, loss, and empowerment in …

Episode page

April 3, 2024

Elaine Lin Hering on Overcoming Barriers to Speaking Up: A Framework …

Unlearning silence isn't just about finding your voice; it's about recognizing the ways we've all been complicit in silencing others. And the surprising insights from a Harvard lecturer will have you rethinking the impact of silence in your world. Join …

Episode page

Feb. 28, 2024

Making Money While Making a Difference: An Expert's Blueprint with Be…

Hey, have you ever felt like you're trying to do the right thing in your business, but it just feels like too much? Like you want to merge profit with purpose, but it seems overwhelming. You're not alone. Many leaders …

Episode page

Feb. 21, 2024

Sarah McCammon on Politics, Media, and Leaving White Evangelicalism

Uncover the unexpected impact of the Trump campaign on the evangelical community as NPR journalist Sarah McCammon shares her personal journey. Her book delves into the complex experiences of those navigating a transition away...

Episode page

Dec. 8, 2023

Norma Braga Venâncio's Courageous Journey of Advocacy, Justice and Ex…

Does the experience of abuse within religious communities sound familiar to you? Have you been told to simply pray it away and forgive without addressing the pain and trauma you've endured? The weight of carrying this burden alone can be …

Episode page

Nov. 15, 2023

Cordell Carter, II on the Aspen Institute and Building a Dynamic Prof…

Cordell Carter, II, the visionary advocate, ignites a revolution of inclusion as he rallies leaders to create a professional learning community, challenging the status quo and dismantling barriers in the pursuit of a fair and...

Episode page

Nov. 8, 2023

Limor Bergman Gross: Crushing Career Stereotypes and Women in Tech Le…

Does this sound familiar? Have you been told that in order to advance in your tech leadership career, you need to simply work harder and prove yourself? But despite your efforts, you still feel like you're hitting a glass cei...

Episode page

Oct. 25, 2023

Naghmeh Panahi: From Darkness to Freedom and Her Inspiring Road to Re…

In the depths of despair, Naghmeh Panahi's story holds an unexpected twist that will leave you breathless. From the war-torn streets of her homeland to the foreign shores of America, she battled not just with oppression, but with her own …

Episode page

Sept. 6, 2023

Lisa Niver: Reinventing Yourself, Brave-ish, and an Inspirational Sto…

Do you long for a renewed sense of strength and self-discovery in the face of life's challenges? Are you seeking inspiration and guidance to navigate major transitions with resilience? Look no further! In this episode, we hav...

Episode page

March 2, 2022

Belonging: Jeff Le on Growing Up Vietnamese-American, His Work in Pol…

Jeff Le has had a career at the highest levels of public policy and politics at the state, federal and international levels. A recognized thought leader in political advocacy and representation, his analysis and opinions have been featured on MSNBC,

Episode page

March 30, 2022

Belonging: Jo Saxton on Recent Clergy Abuse Cases, Leadership Pipeli…

Join our Patreon community of Difference-MakersJo Saxton is a speaker, author, podcast host, and leadership coach who has dedicated her career to investing in women leaders own their voice and find their purpose in their personal lives and in leadership.

Episode page

April 13, 2022

Belonging: Corey Nathan on Growing Up Jewish, Finding Jesus, Celebra…

Corey Nathan, host of the podcast Talkin‘ Politics & Religion Without Killin‘ Each Other! is on the show this week talking about, you guessed it, politics and religion. Buckle up because this conversation goes deep fast.

Episode page

April 22, 2022

EARTH DAY: Dave Johnson on Climate Change, Activism, Stanford Law Sch…

Dave Johnson is a lawyer, teacher and writer. He has served as general counsel for several tech companies in Silicon Valley across the last twenty years. For the last decade he has held teaching and research posts at Stanford Law …

Episode page

July 27, 2022

Wellness: Dr. Paul Miller on Christian Nationalism, Jan 6, White Eva…

Become a patron of this podcast, and enjoy free merch. Join other patrons of this podcast at Patreon. **********Dr. Paul D. Miller (PhD, Georgetown University) is a Christian scholar, political theorist, veteran, and former White House staffer,

Episode page

Aug. 18, 2022

Our Story Part 1: The Calm Before the Storm

Become a patron of this podcast, and enjoy free merch. Join other patrons of this podcast at Patreon. **********Trigger warning: If you have experienced spiritual abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse or any type of abuse especially in a faith-b...

Episode page

Sept. 16, 2022

Our Story Part 5: Image Management & Discrediting the Whistleblower

Become a patron of this podcast, and enjoy free merch. Join other patrons of this podcast at Patreon. **********Please consider signing the petition by Echo Survivors to release former staff at Echo.church from NDAs so they can share their stories …

Episode page

Sept. 22, 2022

Our Story Part 6: Disaster Relief Phase & False Narratives

Episode page

Oct. 12, 2022

Restore: Jessica Stone on Politics, Journalism, Cultural Competency &…

Become a patron of this podcast, and enjoy free merch. Join other patrons of this podcast at Patreon. **********JESSICA STONE’S WORK HAS APPEARED IN THE SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST, YAHOO FINANCE, STANSBERRY RESEARCH, PUBLIC RADIO INTERNATIONAL, USA TODAY,

Episode page

March 3, 2023

Change: Angela Proffitt- From Pain to Profit - An Entrepreneur's Jour…

Experience the power of overcoming pain and discovering purpose through Angela’s inspiring journey."It's not about the stuff, and it's not about all these luxury things. People spend $5 million on a wedding, and I'm like,

Episode page

Sept. 8, 2022

Our Story Part 4: The Firing Squad

Become a patron of this podcast , and enjoy free merch. Join other patrons of this podcast at Patreon . ********** Please consider signing the petition by Echo Survivors to release former staff at Echo.church from NDAs so the...

Episode page

March 7, 2023

Change: Allyson McKinney Timm- Achieving Equality and the Faith for E…

Allyson McKinney Timm, a global justice advocate and founder of Justice Revival, leads an interfaith campaign to support women's rights, gender equality and the Equal Rights Amendment to the US Constitution, despite the culture war drama, religious resistance and financial …

Episode page

March 15, 2023

Change: Dr. Nijay Gupta- Uncovering Her Story: How Women Led, Taught …

In this episode of the World of Difference podcast, Dr. Nijay Gupta, a Hindu background Christian and seminary professor, uses his privilege to uncover the hidden female figures in the New Testament and challenge the long-sta...

Episode page

May 18, 2022

Wellness: Gillian Tietz on Sober Powered, Alcohol's Effect on Differe…

Gillian Tietz is the host of the Sober Powered podcast and works as a biochemist in the Boston area. When she quit drinking in 2019, she dedicated herself to learning about alcohol's influence on the brain and how it can …

Episode page

Feb. 8, 2023

Change: Doni Aldine's Journey as a Third Culture Kid, Empathy & Coura…

Celebrate the courage to explore, learn and grow with empathy, as TCKs show us how to thrive with multiple dimensions of belonging. "The biggest tool in our tool bag is something that we're good at, but we need to focus …

Episode page

Aug. 18, 2022

Our Story Part 1: The Calm Before the Storm

Lori and Jason Adams-Brown share their story of spiritual abuse, emotional abuse and psychological abuse at Echo.church in San Jose, CA at the hands of Andy Wood and Filipe Santos. Their story is by no means the worst story of …

Episode page

Aug. 25, 2022

Our Story Part 2: The Question

Become a patron of this podcast , and enjoy free merch. Join other patrons of this podcast at Patreon . ********** Trigger warning: If you have experienced spiritual abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse or any type of ...

Episode page

June 29, 2022

Wellness: Tahmima Anam on Supporting Women at Work, Microagressions, …

Tahmima Anam is an award-winning novelist, anthropologist, and author of The Startup Wife . She is a Contributing Opinion Writer for the International New York Times and Board Director at ROLl , a tech startup. Her latest Ted...

Episode page

Sept. 1, 2022

Our Story Part 3: The Gaslighting and Flanking

Become a patron of this podcast , and enjoy free merch. Join other patrons of this podcast at Patreon . ********** Trigger warning: If you have experienced spiritual abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse or any type of...

Episode page

April 26, 2023

Change: Sheila Wray Gregoire on She Deserves Better and Redefining Gi…

Sheila Wray Gregoire on She Deserves Better: Redefining Women's Worth Get ready to delve into the fascinating world of sex, marriage, and the impact of messaging on girls' lives in this episode of A World of Difference. Host ...

Episode page

Best of 2023: Discovering the Authentic Voices of the Bible with Dr. Scot McKnight

Listen On

Featured Episodes

Recent Episodes

New to the podcast?

Dr. Jemar Tisby on The Spirit of Justice: Stories of Resilience and R…

Dr. Chuck DeGroat on Healing What's WIthin: Finding Wholeness After A…

When Workplace Adversity Becomes Work Trauma: A Princeton Study with …

From Political Insights to Personal Obstacles: An Immigrant's Journey…

Navigating Politics, Religion, and Justice: A Lawyer's Perspective wi…

Lisa Sharon Harper on The Struggle for Liberation: From Slave Ships t…

Adoptee Centered Approaches: Walking with Those Impacted by Adoption …

Elaine Lin Hering on Overcoming Barriers to Speaking Up: A Framework …

Making Money While Making a Difference: An Expert's Blueprint with Be…

Sarah McCammon on Politics, Media, and Leaving White Evangelicalism

Norma Braga Venâncio's Courageous Journey of Advocacy, Justice and Ex…

Cordell Carter, II on the Aspen Institute and Building a Dynamic Prof…

Limor Bergman Gross: Crushing Career Stereotypes and Women in Tech Le…

Naghmeh Panahi: From Darkness to Freedom and Her Inspiring Road to Re…

Lisa Niver: Reinventing Yourself, Brave-ish, and an Inspirational Sto…

Belonging: Jeff Le on Growing Up Vietnamese-American, His Work in Pol…

Belonging: Jo Saxton on Recent Clergy Abuse Cases, Leadership Pipeli…

Belonging: Corey Nathan on Growing Up Jewish, Finding Jesus, Celebra…

EARTH DAY: Dave Johnson on Climate Change, Activism, Stanford Law Sch…

Wellness: Dr. Paul Miller on Christian Nationalism, Jan 6, White Eva…

Our Story Part 1: The Calm Before the Storm

Our Story Part 5: Image Management & Discrediting the Whistleblower

Our Story Part 6: Disaster Relief Phase & False Narratives

Restore: Jessica Stone on Politics, Journalism, Cultural Competency &…

Change: Angela Proffitt- From Pain to Profit - An Entrepreneur's Jour…

Our Story Part 4: The Firing Squad

Change: Allyson McKinney Timm- Achieving Equality and the Faith for E…

Change: Dr. Nijay Gupta- Uncovering Her Story: How Women Led, Taught …

Wellness: Gillian Tietz on Sober Powered, Alcohol's Effect on Differe…

Change: Doni Aldine's Journey as a Third Culture Kid, Empathy & Coura…

Our Story Part 1: The Calm Before the Storm

Our Story Part 2: The Question

Wellness: Tahmima Anam on Supporting Women at Work, Microagressions, …

Our Story Part 3: The Gaslighting and Flanking

Change: Sheila Wray Gregoire on She Deserves Better and Redefining Gi…